Commoners - thorns in arrogant PC's sides

[kigmatzomat]

One of the ways of dealing with it i to raise the average level of "commoners". A 1st level commoner will be 14-16 years old, and by the time they are 30-35 they will be 5th level. In areas with wandering monsters, a couple of these levels are liable to be warrior as well - to account for the weekly/daily weapons practice hunting/ survival requires.

I do something similar, giving 3-4 levels per age category of the individual. What the levels are in depends on the region. Few urbanites have anything besides commoner or expert simply because there isn't a need. In contrast, a sizeable percentage of the rural peasants take "warrior" at 2nd or 3rd level to reflect being part of a militia or the "holy crap! Goblins! I gotta learn how to fight!" realization that you don't live in a city with nice protective walls.

The exception are some of the despotic societies with excessive weapons control laws. The right to bear arms is generally the first thing to be thrown out when a government stops respecting the populace. There the only combat-capable individuals are either the military or the inevitable insurgents. Robin Hood is a lighter hearted view of those kind of settings.

 

[Saeviomagy]

The thing that gets me is that I've yet to see arrogant PCs without the NPCs being either jerks or morons first.

So the next time your PCs are "arrogant", look at how you're playing your NPCs.

 

[Umbra]

The thing that gets me is that I've yet to see arrogant PCs without the NPCs being either jerks or morons first.

So the next time your PCs are "arrogant", look at how you're playing your NPCs.

Just because you have not experienced it does not mean it doesn't happen. Just because you experienced it only in reaction to something specific doesn't mean it only occurs in reaction to that specific something.

Sorry. I find your statement a generalisation which has missed the point. The idea of the thread was for suggestions of in game solutions to character actions, not a complaint of players egos taking revenge for perceived injustices.

I gamed with an excellent DM in my early game years but when a new player joined the group who thought the world was his character's plaything it was clearly the player and thus each of his characters that was the issue, not the DM or the DM's NPCs.

In my own games, I don't believe it's my NPC's. And I have very strong personality players who are happy to call me out if I am misbehaving . I do like the world to react in a vaguely realistic way to what the characters do.

Too some extent, I believe it is the lack of consequences to the players that means the characters can get...a little big headed.

My example upthread of the character with loose morals who was sleeping with all the menfolk was an example. There was no real consequence to the player so characters actions got a little extreme and thus I introduced the children of the cuckolded wives which lead to a moderation of the character's behaviour. It was not an issue of the the NPC's being jerks.

:\ In my experience.

 

[Umbra]

Another example: a former DM, in an attempt to knock my thief back down to size, had notices go up around town. Not enough to clearly identify my character but enough to make people react cautiously around him and keep a careful eye on him.

Sigh. That town got boring.

 

[Maldin]

And, of course, there was the party that had to deal extensively with having to buy property from the local government...

ROFL!! In my own campaign, a party found the deed to one of the properties they "adventured" in, and wanted to register the deed so that they could move in and use it as a base of operations. That produced an entire night of role playing where not a sword was unsheathed. The ridiculous steps that they had to go through are described on my website on a page called "Registering the Deed" at http://melkot.com/mechanics/deed.html
Check it out if you want to torture your players with thesame sort of bureacracy ;-)

Denis, aka "Maldin"
===============================
Maldin's Greyhawk http://melkot.com

 

[Umbra]

The ridiculous steps that they had to go through are described on my website on a page called "Registering the Deed" at http://melkot.com/mechanics/deed.html

ROFLMAO! Great. Although I know some players who would leap across the table and give the DM a good slap if this was done to them.

 

[FickleGM]

This sure is an interesting thread. I have seen (and participated in) my share of PC arrogance directed at commoners. So, how do I deal with it? Well, let's look some aspects that I have dealt with and multiple ways that I have dealt with it:

1. Heroes who bully commoners are not heroes, but are instead thugs.
a) If the heroes stay in the region and keep the commoners under thumb, then they should be able to ensure compliance (a few "examples" may be necessary, but eventually the commoners will get it).

b) If the heroes come and go, then the commoners will look to find real heroes to rid them of their "problem" when the PCs return.

2. Who is above the law?
a) If the heroes have the magical, physical, financial or political power to pull it off, then yes, they can act above the law (vigilance will be necessary to avoid retribution).

b) If the heroes underestimate the locals, they may find themselves at the end of the hangman's noose.

3. "I just saved your measly lives, worship me".
a) Thankful for their lives and fearful of the PCs power, commoners may indeed lick the boots of their saviors.

b) Malevolent "saviors" may be the target of rebellion (they may even defeat the rebels, but at what cost?).

4. I'm not playing this game for reality.
a) I could allow the mindless slaughter of commoners without any consequences if the players truly want a video game experience (I will not show the emotion of the commoners, for if the players just want to play emotionless killers (or bullies) then my commoners will die (or be bullied) without fear, sorrow or regret). *this is only the case when the whole party decides to forget roleplaying and just go postal on my world*

b) I'll find a group that respects the work that I am putting into my world (if they want to be on the wrong side of society, then they should be willing to accept the consequences).

5. I have 120 hitpoints so I'll charge the crossbowmen.
a) The PCs are immensely skilled and powerful, so a handful of crossbowmen shouldn't be much of a challenge (sure it isn't realistic, but it's a game).

b) Utilize optional rules (auto-kill 20-20-hits, WP/VP, etc.) or use a different rule system (I'll admit that this is one of the reasons that I like True20 - not only for PCs, but also for powerful NPCs to respect the chance of death from most weapons).

Later...

 

[Maldin]

1. Heroes who bully commoners are not heroes, but are instead thugs.
2. Who is above the law?
3. "I just saved your measly lives, worship me".
...etc.

Some of this goes to another mechanic that I developed for my own campaign.
"Notoriety"
The PC's actions should have consequences in their world.
Notoriety was first presented in the Greyhawk adventure module "City of Skulls" as a way to judge how NPCs would react to them in the specific environment of that particular adventure. I took that a few steps further by expanding Notoriety to include the entire campaign over both time and geography. Check it out at http://melkot.com/mechanics/notoriety.html
I'd be really interested in hearing what other DMs think about it, and how it works for them if anyone ever tries to utilize it.

Denis, aka "Maldin"
==============================
Maldin's Greyhawk http://melkot.com

 

[Saeviomagy]

Sorry. I find your statement a generalisation which has missed the point. The idea of the thread was for suggestions of in game solutions to character actions, not a complaint of players egos taking revenge for perceived injustices.

I guess my neck of the woods has a higher ratio of bad DMs to bad players then. My point was that one reaction a DM should have to 'arrogant' PCs should be to look at how he's running his NPCs.

The way that those NPCs then 'fix' the PCs is by being well-played, sensible, useful people that give respect where respect is due, and otherwise contribute to the storyline.

After you've taken that look and made those adjustments, if your PCs are still being arrogant, by all means try something else. But don't jump straight to "that young boy who tried to pick the pocket of a 10th level saviour of his town and is (probably quite rightfully) having his butt kicked happens to have a great uncle's brother's former roommate's wife who is an ancient wyrm gold dragon with a taste for violent vengeance, and he comes to give the smackdown".

 

[Azul]

One of the ways of dealing with it i to raise the average level of "commoners". A 1st level commoner will be 14-16 years old, and by the time they are 30-35 they will be 5th level. In areas with wandering monsters, a couple of these levels are liable to be warrior as well - to account for the weekly/daily weapons practice hunting/ survival requires.

A bar full of 20 Warrior 2/commoner 3 s can seriously beat your average low-level party if they get upity - and the mere fact that your average peasant could beat you at 1st level breeds long term respect.

I do something like this too. My "average joe" is typically around 3rd level in an NPC class. Tougher "normals" are around 5th level. First level NPC class characters are youths and the meek or incompetant. Most NPCs only have levels in NPC classes (Adept, Aristocrat, Commoner, Expert, Warrior and Thug (from Traps and Treachery - an criminal NPC class). Elite or exceptional NPCs will be above 5th level and/or have levels in PC base classes like fighter (instead of warrior or aristocrat), rogue (instead of expert or thug).

Peasant militias typically either have the Militia feat (from Player's Guide to Faerun - grants proficiency in all martial weapons) or a single level of warrior (sometimes more) replacing one of their commoner/expert levels. Peasant militiamen aren't all that tough individually, but as a massed group, they can give low levelled PCs a bit of a rough time. In particularly dangerous regions, I've had the average peasant militiaman be a 5th level commoner/warrior but that's a fairly extreme case.

Peasant militias should be strong enough to repulse some low-level raiders or a single larger foe (like an ogre or maybe an owlbear or troll, although those latter two should definitely inflict major casualties). In other words, they should be strong enough to provide a credible defence against most of the typical critters in the area (otherwise, the village either has a protector or it shouldn't exist).

Unlike the peasant levies, dedicated combatants (like town guards or men-at-arms) are pure warriors, warriors who eventually take a PC base class (e.g. war2/fgt2 - a common soldier who proved himself and was given superior training afterwards) or PC base class only (i.e. they got superior training at a young age). For scout/forester types, I'll use the expert class instead of the warrior. 3rd level experts with the Militia and Track feats make very credible woodsmen.

Of course, I use the same logic for hostile humanoid and giant communities too, and I consider their way of life to be harsher so they have proportionally more (and often higher level) warriors than the good races. An orc raiding party might be a bunch of low level youths seeking to prove themselves by attacking a human village but an orc tribe on the warpath will bring out its battlescarred veterans (high level warriors, warrior/fighters or fighters) and its bloodthirsty berserkers (warrior/barbarians or barbarians).

I should add that I do NOT give these higher level NPC class types the thousands of gp of gear suggested for such levels in the DMG. I only do that for noteworthy NPCs such as NPC adventurers or villains. Other NPCs have wealth appropriate to their social class and standing and nothing more.