Comparison: Strongholds & Dynasties - Empire - Magical Medieval Society - Birthright

[Silveras]

The Joy of Conversion

To get a better handle on how each of these books works, I decided to work up the same area in all four systems.

The base information:

The Barony of Kharith is a smallish Barony at the edges of the Kingdom of Aruthkar. It is more prosperous than one might normally expect such a small realm to be, because it is the gateway for trade with the barbarian lands on the other side of a mountain pass. Also, the Guild of Fire Mages chose what was then a small village to house their University. That village, Avanthus, has now become a Large City/Metropolis due to the two effects. The capitol, Kharith Town, grew up around a fortress that was originally placed by conquerors of the region.

In the next few posts, I will describe the process of conversion to each system.

 

[Silveras]

Conversion - Birthright

Ok, this one was the easy one. I had long since converted my homebrew campaign to use the same basic rules as Birthright, so no real "conversion" was necessary.

Attached you will find a PDF of the Birthright stats for the Barony of Kharith.

Military forces are undefined because, although this location is in a troubled area, it is far from where the players were active, so I never got around to defining the military forces.

 

[Silveras]

Conversion - A Magical Medieval Society

This one was not too difficult, in some ways. The big challenge was that MMS:WE does not use any kind of "province" breakdown - it works in terms of square miles of area. So, I had to determine the square mile area of each province on the map. That was made easier by my using Visio to map in the first place. An add-in tool in Visio reports the area of shape (in the units of your choice). Since I had made each province its own shape, it was just a matter of taking the area of each shape in square inches and multiplying by 900 (square miles at 30 miles to the inch). That process took me a couple of days (290 provinces; good thing I had them all mapped beforehand {2 months for that}).

I decided that the best way to adjust the provinces for flavor was to vary the Population Density figure based on conditions and history. It took me about a day and a half to come up with the right mix of conditions and events, and another day to work up the numbers so that they felt right. If you are curious, you can find a 7-page PDF on how to do it on the Expeditious Retreat Community Support page, along with some great extras from other people.

With those numbers already available, it took me about 5 minutes to fill in the Excel sheet for Kharith. However, information on the Kingdom level in AMMS:WE is very much based on averages, to it all calculates out for you. The result of that is that you may not have as much control over variations as you might like.

Attached here is the Barony of Kharith in notation based on AMMS:WE.

 

[Silveras]

Conversion - Empire

This one was a harder.

Armed with the population and area figures I already had, I started running them up at the Kingdom scale. That did not work. Kharith, a small Birthright realm, had 198 land units and 485 population units. For comparison, the Royal Demesne (where the King who is the Baron's liege rules) is about 7 times that size. Food and housing space did not seem to be a problem, but the numbers were awfully big for a small realm. So I did it over at Empire scale. That pushed it down to 10 land units and 48/49 population. Better, but that means that my world is still mostly off the scale of Empire.

Attached are both versions of Kharith in Empire. #1 is at Kingdom scale, which is the one I assumed would be most representative of what I wanted; and #2 is at Empire scale.

 

[Silveras]

Conversion - Strongholds & Dynasties

This one is the most problematic.

Much of the relevant information is scattered in the book. The number of resources units produced is on one page; the number of food units required per month is on another page; the number of resource types in a province is on a third page -- all in separate chapters, sometimes under not-so-obvious headings.

For example, the food needs of the population are under the Population growth rules. The rates of production of raw materials is discussed 100 pages away, under the description of the Province Sheet. The limits are discussed under Resources, somewhere in between. It took me 2 days to find all the relevant pieces of information. The Index is not much help; it is not alphabetized correctly, and does not cross-reference dispersed topics. Some things are not mentioned at all.

Once I got rolling, I tried to apply the directions for determining population from an existing map. I started with the big province, and the big city in it. The population figures came out larger (not too surprising), by about 30% (that was surprising). Also, the demographics would be much different; anywhere from 44% to 66% of the population would be urban dwellers (small town or larger). These numbers seem way off-base. 8% (as in MMS:WE) is more what I expected.

Proceeding with the population figures I had from other sources, I still need 176 food units every month to feed the people in that province. I need more if I am going to be able to put some away for the winter months, say 220. I am allowed, based on population, to produce up to 59 types of resources, at 5 units each. Hmm.. but that includes stone, metal, inks, and a whole bunch of other good. There are not 60 types of things to produce; there are about 40 categories, of which at least half are "not food".

Although the book says the DM will decide the boundaries of provinces and their areas, it seems obvious that there was a presumed size, and it was smaller than the areas I assigned. Adjusting this is tricky. If I increase the production rate, then the potential for trade to become a problem rears up. If I decrease the trade value of the units to compensate, then I have just made trade much less worthwhile.

At any rate, here are 2 PDF's. The first is the Regime Sheet for the Barony, and the second is the Province sheet for 1 province.

 

[Arnwyn]

Very nice stuff - very helpful.

Which system would you recommend if you started "from scratch" - in other words, the PCs build a tower in the wilderness and claim a few square miles of land - and then growth of that area becomes part of the continuing game?

The work you're doing above looks like you're trying to convert a pre-existing realm... something I have no interest in doing. I'm looking for something PC-centric, starting at square one and growing from there as the game continues, with their new realm being affected by their own actions (eg. We build a road (ie. infrastructure) to our tower. What happens then? We build a well nearby free to use. Does anyone settle? How many? Who? Blacksmith first? We find "resources" in the nearby hills. Now how many people show up? We offer protection in exchange for taxes. Etc etc).

(I disagree a bit about MMS:WE getting an A+ for small scale domain management. IIRC, that book is missing population growth rules, which is a cornerstone in continuous domain management.)

It looks like I'm leaning toward S&D (even though it looks like that book is poorly laid out)... but like others, I'm very curious to see Fields of Blood.

Edit: tried to clarify.

 

[Silveras]

Very nice stuff - very helpful.

Which system would you recommend if you started "from scratch" - in other words, the PCs build a tower in the wilderness and claim a few square miles of land - and then growth of that area becomes part of the continuing game?

I think I would recommend a combination of MMS:WE and S&D, depending. Birthright and Empire are a bit too high a level for that (though Empire scales down better). MMS:WE is geared around the acre-by-acre management of a manor, which is about as small a starting point as you can have. From there, it depends on how much fantasy you want. MMS:WE is very historically, grounded. What I have faulted it for in the past is being so strongly historical, it does not discuss anything varying from its model (humans in a temperate land region with a particular mix of terrains). S&D is more inclusive of fantasy variations, but its assumptions about population demographics seem way off.

Realistically, for a band of settlers in the wilderness, MMS:WE and S&D is better than either alone. MMS:WE will give you a good base on what that first tiny settlement is like. Once they get rolling, and the population gets big enough (through recruitment, presumably) to support more sophistication, you can start mixing in more concepts from S&D.

I don't think any of these systems really addresses the needs of a campaign where the PCs are leading 100 or so survivors fleeing the destruction of their homelands (ie., can't recruit more people, can't purchase additional supplies).

The work you're doing above looks like you're trying to convert a pre-existing realm... something I have no interest in doing. I'm looking for something PC-centric, starting at square one and growing from there as the game continues, with their new realm being affected by their own actions (eg. We build a road (ie. infrastructure) to our tower. What happens then? We build a well nearby free to use. Does anyone settle? How many? Who? Blacksmith first? We find "resources" in the nearby hills. Now how many people show up? We offer protection in exchange for taxes. Etc etc).

MMS:WE discusses this a bit, as well as S&D. Waiting for spontaneous settlers is much less effective than advertising. MMS:WE mentions offering land to the workers who build your tower, for example. Depending on the attitude of the surrounding lands, you may be able to "buy" peasants from a local lord (essentially pay a tax or penalty to free them from obligations to their existing lord so they can move); others might take offense at your attempts to recruit settlers. In a medieval-style society, though, people do not just pick up and move whenever they feel like it (at least, the ones who are likely to be good citizens don't). S&D's population growth rules, by the way, address the normal birth rates but not much in the way of recruiting tenants (it "just happens").

I don't think you will find hard-and-fast rules for the scene you described, mostly because the circumstances of each game world will be very different. A lot of role-played diplomacy with the lords of any bordering lands would be needed, for example, to recruit people from them without having their armies steamroll over your fledgling tower. If there are no bordering lands, well, there are also no people to recruit, then.

(I disagree a bit about MMS:WE getting an A+ for small scale domain management. IIRC, that book is missing population growth rules, which is a cornerstone in continuous domain management.)

Well, yes and no. It does mention the need to recruit people if there are no settlers already in the lands the PCs have obtained.

In the PDF I mentioned, discussing how to vary the population in a province, I hit on this slightly. I recommend increasing the population density by 1 per generation (20 years for humans, 5 years for Orcs, etc.). That, of course, is appropriate for managing a kingdom of hundreds of manors, not a single manor.

 

[Arnwyn]

I think I would recommend a combination of MMS:WE and S&D, depending.

Cool - 'cause I own both of those. (I had kind of figured that those 2 books were going in the direction I needed - nice to see my hunch is [probably] right.)

Thanks again for your insight, Silveras!

 

[Silveras]

Cool - 'cause I own both of those. (I had kind of figured that those 2 books were going in the direction I needed - nice to see my hunch is [probably] right.)

Thanks again for your insight, Silveras!

Glad someone finds the posts useful.

One thing I am wresting with right now, as I mentioned in the post on Conversion - Stronghold is that the resource system is not as good as it looked at first. While there is impressive coverage of sample resources, and it handles increasing the value by working them, too much is ambiguous.

Aside from the "DM decides what is available", the numbers of units don't make sense.

Resources are available in 5 quantities, ranging from scant (1 unit/province/month) to abundant (5 units/province/month). A province can work 3 resource types (grain, livestock, stone, corn, flax, etc.) plus 1 per 3,000 people. So far, that seems reasonable. Except...

A province of 10 square miles with a population of 5 people produces 3 types of resources: 5 units of grain, 5 units of stone, and 5 of livestock. Cottage industry converts 1 unit of livestock to 1 unit of food. This province needs a miniscule fraction of 1 unit of food to feed the people for a month.

A province of 1,000 square miles with a population of 500 people produces 3 types of resources: 5 units of grain, 5 units of stone, and 5 units of livestock. Cottage industry converts 1 unit of livestock to 1 unit of food. This province needs 1/2 of one unit of food to feed the people for one month.

A province of 1,000 square miles with a population of 100,000 people produces 36 types of resources: 5 units of grain, 5 of stone, 5 of livestock, etc. Cottage industry converts 1 unit of livestock to 1 unit of food. Industrial buildings (10 mills, 8 tanneries) convert the 5 units of grain to 5 units of flour and the 4 remaining units of livestock to 4 units of leather. This province needs 100 units of food to feed the people for one month.

There is no connection between the size of the province and the number of resource units you can harvest from it; nor is there any connection between the population and the number of resource units you can harvest.

Also, aside from food, there is no information (at least that I have found) on internal consumption. Theoretically, the province if 5 people above could sell all 4 remaining units of livestock. They could then sell all 5 units of stone and 5 units of grain, too. This would not impact their standard of living at all.

There is also no ability to decide which resources should be worked. With most other systems, some number of people need to work at a resource to produce it. MMS:WE notes that miners who are working the mine are not farming. Empire assigns population units to harvesting 1 type of resource at a time. (Birthright does not descend to this level of detail, representing all as money.)

My tentative solution, at the moment, is to say that the figures in Strongolds & Dynasties are per 100 square miles. So a province of 1000 square miles can produce up to 50 units of an abundant resource. It may seem like some resources should not "stretch" this way, especially inorganic ones like stone and metal. The DM needs to be careful when assigning the available resources. Some, like stone, may need to "drop" from abundant to "scant" to reflect the greater emphasis on area.

As for population, the population numbers already allow you to work a number of types of resources. I am considering using MMS:WE's Population Density figures for typcal Medieval Kingdoms for the other part (30-160 people / square mile). For each 13 "points" of Population Density over 30, 10% of the total potential resources can be produced each month (for more granularity, for each 6.5 "points", 5% of the potential resources can be produced). With less than 30, NO resources can be produced - there are not enough workers together to work effectively.

 

[Eosin the Red]

I would bet that you would be surprised how many of us are actually watching. Thank you.

Now I see that this thread made the front page.