Pathfinder 1E Condensing the skills list

[Jester David]

This depends, again, on the desired game structure. If the intent is that classes be more defining, specific skills linked to specific classes make sense (harkening back to the 1e/2e days when we had no or very limited skills). What happens with the broadly defined list in 3e/Pathfinder now?


How many characters put ranks in Profession to distinguish them versus how many put ranks in Perception and Use Magic Device because these are "the most useful skills in the game"? If every member of a given class will always, or virtually always, max out a specific skill, maybe that skill should be removed in favour of becoming a class ability (possibly with commensurate reduction of skill points to that class).

This happens a lot but varies depending on players. Some have differing opinions on the usefulness of certain skills, and the type of game will dramatically change this.
Making something like UMD a class feature and reducing skill points just hurts players who don't like that skill.

But let's look at the intent of the OP again:

My reason for condensing skills is to give players more reasons to place skill points in many skills. Too many skills means means that most are too niche for players to invest in.

He wants PCs to spread out skills by consolidating and removing niche skills. I feel this will have the opposite effect by making key class or build skills too important and valuable to not to put ranks into.

 

[MarkB]

But let's look at the intent of the OP again:

He wants PCs to spread out skills by consolidating and removing niche skills. I feel this will have the opposite effect by making key class or build skills too important and valuable to not to put ranks into.

In many cases, such skills are already a must-have. By consolidating those key skills you make them a cheaper investment, thus leaving more resources to spend upon other, more flavourful choices.

 

[Jester David]

In many cases, such skills are already a must-have. By consolidating those key skills you make them a cheaper investment, thus leaving more resources to spend upon other, more flavourful choices.

Only if you keep the same number of Skill Points. Given he's halving the list of skills, doing the same to skill points makes sense. So the dwarf fighter with 10 Int has one rank each level. He's not going to go with Profession. Likewise, with 4 skills the rogue has a pretty limited selection. You pick the mandatory rogue skills and your type of rogue (face/ stealth/ acrobatics) and you're done.
With more granular skills they can divide their focus easier, such as picking locks but not pockets. You can choose to be "good enough" in half your skills while being a master in others. But with consolidation, your mastery skill might be the same as your dip skill, so not going all in is silly.

If the desire is to encourage spreading out skills, instead of consolidation - which might have the opposite effect - capping maximum skills as being less then your maximum is an alternative. Something like half-level+1 might work but would be complicated. This might require a chart or be something. So at level 3 (using 1/2+1) you can't add ranks to most of your skills (as they're at cap) but you can spread out into other skills. And at level 4 your cap increase.
But this would require recalculating every single monster's skills, and expected DC would change. And more PCs would have trained only skills and want to make rolls. It might work best with a slight reduction of starting skills.

 

[MarkB]

Only if you keep the same number of Skill Points. Given he's halving the list of skills, doing the same to skill points makes sense.

That's a big assumption, and it goes against the OP's stated goal.

 

[GMMichael]

Condensing skills is easy: go to a used book store. Buy AD&D 2nd Ed Player's Handbook. Use non-weapon proficiencies, which are bundles of skills.

 

[thorgrit]

Not really seeing Fly and Ride being in the same category as Acrobatics and Escape Artist. I'd wonder about bundling these two separately as Maneuver or something. Or treat it like you do UMD, a class with those as class skills can make Agility checks instead of plain Dex checks.

Star Wars Saga bundled both Diplomacy and Intimidate into a Persuasion skill, and I could see the same happening here. They essentially both get another person to do what you want via the Cha mod. If you want to condense further, possibly throw Bluff in too, and move Disguise down to Thievery? It's a stretch, just thinking out loud.

 

[MarkB]

Cancel that

 

[N'raac]

Not really seeing Fly and Ride being in the same category as Acrobatics and Escape Artist. I'd wonder about bundling these two separately as Maneuver or something.

So Wizards witrh flying spells that they are skilled with also get to be expert horse riders (or exotic beast riders, for that matter - another skill that begs the "9 aspects of perform but this covers everything" question). If we assume the skill is about shifting body mass, perhaps Fly fits better with Balance and Tumbling.

Or treat it like you do UMD, a class with those as class skills can make Agility checks instead of plain Dex checks.

This could work better for Fly, and some classes could receive it for Ride (or maybe Ride folds in with Handle Animal). Nothing wrong with those "skills that become class abilities" also being made available as feats for other classes that want the ability.

Star Wars Saga bundled both Diplomacy and Intimidate into a Persuasion skill, and I could see the same happening here. They essentially both get another person to do what you want via the Cha mod. If you want to condense further, possibly throw Bluff in too, and move Disguise down to Thievery? It's a stretch, just thinking out loud.

Not sure every likeable, persuasive person needs to be intimidating, nor that a towering hulk also needs to be charming. And neither one cries out to be a skilled liar. However, that's the result we get when we merge the skills. We already accept skill at Jumping and Balancing equating to Tumbling, knowing languages enabling forgery and riding a horse and a whale being the same skill, so it's really a matter of degree.

 

[Jester David]

How does condensing work with other modifiers?

Do halflings suddenly get bonuses to Agility, suddenly becoming great fliers? What about the modifiers to Fly based on being clumsy or perfect fliers? Does that make the creature a worse rider and jumper?

 

[Greg K]

\The more classic examples are science fiction/fantasy, such as Flash Gordon or Malcolm Reynolds being immediately proficient with a sword, despite no indication of prior experience ("the pointy end goes in the other fellow"). If that is the material we wish the game to emulate, then fewer, broader skills is a good mechanic for doing so.

If we are talking about "Shindig", I don't consider Mal proficient with it (knowing that the "point end goes in the other fellow" does not indicate proficiency". Inara tells him that he is using it incorrectly and tries to give him some pointers, but he is still awkward with it and Atherton toyed with him to build up Mal's confidence. The only reason Mal wins (besides him being a lead) is that Atherton, gets distracted by a plea from Inara while preparing to deliver a coup de grace on Mal whom is on the ground disarmed and stabbed in the abdomen.