Pathfinder 1E Condensing the skills list

adembroski

First Post
A short skill list is not a goal in itself, but of course a longer skill list means you have to hand out more skill points.

No, that would defeat the purpose.

I prefer the lower complexity of a shorter list with enabler feats - much easier to make and read character descriptions if there are 10 skills than if there are 40, especially of some of those 40 are so strongly themed you'd rarely have one without 1-3 others - say if you split up trap disposal into 3 different skills, all of which are needed to perform the basic function.

In other words, I prefer a skill list divided by adventurer concept. Going back to trap disposal, that can be split into several sections - finding traps, removing traps, building traps, setting traps, the tactical knowledge to realize what is a good bottleneck to put traps in, and so on. But a character trained in one of these would be unlikely to not know all the others. Oh sure, there are craftsmen who built traps and have no idea how to find them, but those are not adventurer types - and I want my rules geared towards whose who will actually use it - meaning adventurers.

My issue is that certain skills cover things not intended. Example, Raistlin Majere (level 18 Wizard, iirc) was known for being an expert in prestidigitation. He would entertain his brother when they were young by performing slight of hand tricks. This is covered by the slight of hand skill. At no point did Raistlin Majere ever pick anyone's pocket, nor was it ever implied he could, nor do I believe that the ability to make a coin roll across your knuckles necessarily translates into being able to pick a pocket.

Things like picking pockets, picking locks, having attuned hearing or eyesight, etc., those things ar eparticular skills that I don't think are well served through generalizing them all further. It also feels very much like taking two huge steps back in the game... we had no skills, then we had proficiency, then we had true skills... it seems odd that people are trying to backtrack to the days when characters were a race and a class and very little more.
 

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Starfox

Hero
For an example of a game that went the other road and made each separate stunt into its own separate skill, see Earthdawn. Riposte was a skill in that game, not a feat or power. So were several other combat maneuvers. IMO, that is way to much splitting up of skills. That is when I realized I prefer a few skills and to have add-ons as feats or schticks rather than as separate skills. I guess I took that path further than some of you would have. To each our own.

I agree on Perception. Must-have skills are not good. My take on it is to make what used to be the Search skill in 3.5, and make that a part of Disable Device. Going further down that road (hypothetically) you could make the ability to spot an ambush an aspect of combat skills, the ability to spot hidden clues an aspect of the investigation skill and so on, abolishing the general Perception skill completely, in favor of making each character good at spotting things he is familiar with. Again, not sure that you'd want tog o that far, but it is a spectrum - we much each find a level we are comfortable with.
 

MarkB

Legend
No, that would defeat the purpose.



My issue is that certain skills cover things not intended. Example, Raistlin Majere (level 18 Wizard, iirc) was known for being an expert in prestidigitation. He would entertain his brother when they were young by performing slight of hand tricks. This is covered by the slight of hand skill. At no point did Raistlin Majere ever pick anyone's pocket, nor was it ever implied he could, nor do I believe that the ability to make a coin roll across your knuckles necessarily translates into being able to pick a pocket.

The combination of timing, misdirection and extreme manual dexterity required for successful prestidigitation seems to me like exactly the sort of thing that would translate well into pickpocketing. Conversely, somebody who is highly trained at picking pockets would have at least a fair portion of the skillset required to perform acts of prestidigitation.

And again, it comes down to how granular you want to be. If Raistlin excelled at coin tricks but had never practised card tricks or learned to pull bouquets of flowers from his sleeves, would you then feel compelled to further subdivide the Prestidigitation skill?
 

Matthias

Explorer
A different approach you might be willing to explore is how 4E does skills, where you pick skills to be trained or untrained in. But where 4E did some serious generalization, go the opposite direction and super-specialize them. Bring back Innuendo and Intuit Direction as separate from Sense Motive and Survival; re-split Forgery and Decipher Script and Linguistics; make Sleight of hand separate from Pick Pockets; divide Spot, Listen, and Search; bring back Jump, Tumble, and all the other skills that used to be their own thing.

But with the increased number of skills you need to have a proportionately greater number of "training points" (or whatever you want to call them). Because instead of computing individualized skill ranks for each skill (which would only be fun for CPAs), characters might choose a certain number of skills to be "primary skills", some to be "secondary", some to be "hobbies", and would treat the rest as untrained (whether usable untrained or not). Each category of aptitude would represents a certain level of expertise (not just an all-or-nothing approach as 4E does).

"Primary skills" would have the maximum bonus appropriate for your character level. These are your specialties.

"Secondary skills" wouldn't carry as a big a bonus as your primary skills, but you should be able to do a decent job with one in a pinch if you roll well.

"Hobby skills" are the equivalent of "rank dipping"--equivalent to taking a single rank, though even this low bonus might advance every 5 levels or whatever.

As in 4E, each level of training has a fixed bonus granted per character level, which advances every so often. While this loses some granularity in the system in one area (individualized skill check bonuses), you improve the granularity in another (being better at auditory perception than visual, or being a better pickpocket than a juggler).

Any given class would have X number of each category they could select at character generation, which will be roughly analogous to the number of skill ranks they get now. Suppose the new list of skills consists of 50 skills in roughly the same proportions of Strength, Dexterity, Intelligence, etc. that they have now, and there is roughly the same percentage of "rogue-y" skills of the total list as there is now. Rogue would have to have at a minimum enough primary, secondary, and hobby points (or whatever you want to call them) to give the class at any given level more or less the same level of skills capability that it had before--slightly more slots than Rangers have, and both will have significantly more slots to use than Fighters.

Unlike RAW, there is the potential for differentiating between classes that get the same number of base ranks per level--two classes might have gotten 6 ranks/level in the old system, but one class might have a larger proportion of secondary skills vs. primary skills than the other, because that class likes to be more versatile than the other. The "dabbler" may have a higher total number of trained skills than the "specialist", but they will be roughly equal in terms of capabilities with skills.

The game mechanic that grants a skill check bonus for a trained class skill would still be there, but whether it should stay at +3 or not, I couldn't say, not without hashing out more of the specifics behind these rules changes.

There should probably be an option for trading out a primary-skill slot for two secondary-skill slots (or 1 secondary and 1 hobby, etc.) but this would have to be well-designed to prevent exploits. Perhaps a feat for buying additional "hobby skill" slots, or a feat for upgrading a secondary to a primary.
 
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adembroski

First Post
The combination of timing, misdirection and extreme manual dexterity required for successful prestidigitation seems to me like exactly the sort of thing that would translate well into pickpocketing. Conversely, somebody who is highly trained at picking pockets would have at least a fair portion of the skillset required to perform acts of prestidigitation.

And again, it comes down to how granular you want to be. If Raistlin excelled at coin tricks but had never practiced card tricks or learned to pull bouquets of flowers from his sleeves, would you then feel compelled to further subdivide the Prestidigitation skill?

Can't argue with your logic, it's mostly a matter of where you want to draw the line. At some point we get to the "everything that can be regarded as a skill is related in that it's not a feat, so lets just combine them all into one roll."

I just feel that PF has taken a few steps beyond where the condensation needed to be. My original post in this thread was just to find people who felt the same way. I was starting to feel alone:p

The nice thing about having many skills is greater differentiation between characters. I remember one group I ran had two rogues, and they purposefully worked together on building characters so one could do things well that the other couldn't. The more you tie the rogue skills together, the less practical that is.

Stealth is a great example. A rogue with a high move silently skill but a mediocre hide skill can be creative in his approach; stick to cover, use his talents in the dark or at night, etc..; the opposite has to be still, wait for guards to move on rather than sneaking past them. It creates more scenarios, more interesting use of the skills in game.
 

VelvetViolet

Adventurer
I've been rethinking on this, and I've recently developed a rather quick and dirty guideline for cutting down the skills list from 35 to 22 by folding skills into other skills, which would be a simple matter of crossing out certain skills on the character sheet, like so. Reducing the number of skill points is not necessary and is counter productive to my stated goal.

Acrobatics
Appraise Folded into Profession
Bluff
Climb
Craft Folded into Profession
Diplomacy
Disable Device Folded into Sleight of Hand
Disguise Folded into Bluff
Escape Artist Folded into Acrobatics
Fly
Handle Animal Folded into Knowledge (nature)
Heal
Intimidate
Knowledge (arcana)
Knowledge (dungeoneering)
Knowledge (engineering) Folded into Knowledge (dungeoneering)
Knowledge (geography) Folded into Knowledge (local)
Knowledge (history) Folded into Knowledge (local)
Knowledge (local)
Knowledge (nature)
Knowledge (nobility) Folded into Knowledge (local)
Knowledge (planes)
Knowledge (religion)
Linguistics
Perception
Perform
Profession
Ride
Sense Motive
Sleight of Hand
Spellcraft Folded into Knowledge (arcana) and Knowledge (religion)
Stealth
Survival Folded into Knowledge (nature) and Knowledge (planes)
Swim
Use Magic Device Becomes a class feature a la Animal Empathy

If Use Magic Device shouldn't become a class feature, then why shouldn't Wild Empathy be available as a class skill for anyone who wanted it? I think a good way to solve this would be to allow Wild Empathy and Use Magic Device to be available as feats to other classes.

Furthermore, some of the skills use different attributes than the skills they're folded into (which is also true to 3.5 skills that were folded in Pathfinder). A pretty simple way to deal with this is allow the use of multiple abilities for a given skill based on the application. For example, jumping using Acrobatics would use Strength instead of Dexterity.
 
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Matthias

Explorer
Okay--except for Knowledge(engineering) being merged with Knowledge(dungeoneering), your suggested mergers are not unreasonable despite the fact that skills of otherwise similar bent are keyed to different abilities (Str vs. Dex, or Int vs. Wis), which to me suggests they represent activities which are distinct enough to warrant maintaining separate sets of skill ranks. But for the sake of argument let's ignore this latter point. Why then would you not merge Climb, Swim, and Fly with Acrobatics, merge Perform with Profession[entertainer], and merge Heal and Ride with Knowledge (nature)?
 

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