Conjuration Wizard 2/Thief Rogue 3
WarpedAcorn
First Post
Its pretty hard to argue against the High Elf for the race like Ogre Mage suggested. The only other option I might suggest is Variant Human (for the Feat) or Lightfoot Halfling for the extra sneakiness.
As for how to level, I would lean to starting with Rogue to 3, then dive into Wizard. Number one for me is getting those extra HP at the start, as well as the extra skills and proficiencies. Staying in Rogue another level gets Cunning Action which I feel is incredibly important for survivibility and worth going for. And that straight to 3rd Rogue level I would say is good for getting the Archetype and that extra Sneak Attack die.
For Wizard, I feel you can put it off because Cantrip-wise you won't really be needing any of the non-SCAG versions since you can't Sneak Attack with a Firebolt, and the SCAG cantrips won't really shine until you hit Character-Level 5 and they upgrade. The only issue would be if you feel the Wizard Spell list is worth getting before the 3 levels of Rogue for the utility/defense. Since Mage Armor is redundant with your armor, that really leaves Shield for defense. Offensively your single target with Sneak Attack is solid, so you would have to see if you really need some Area Spells like Sleep or Burning Hands. Ultimately, I feel Wizard can wait in this build.
Awesome breakdown, Acorn. I guess High Elf and Rogue first is the way to go. I think I'll take a 3rd level of Wizard at 6 since it would double my spell slots and give me access to level 2 spells, which is much more beneficial than another level of Rogue. Most groups don't even make it to level 10 anyway.
So now the question is: what are some creative/clever uses of the conjuration ability? Thieves tools, rope, a weapon, a torch, caltrops, lead balls, a net, ranged ammunition, an anvil over an enemy's head, a chair to wedge under a door handle, oil to set fire to, a hornet nest to clear out a room, papers/badges/uniforms for gaining entry, an instrument to cause a distraction, manacles/handcuffs, a vial of poison, flowers to charm a girl, food and drink, etc. What can you guys come up with?
So now the question is: what are some creative/clever uses of the conjuration ability? Thieves tools, rope, a weapon, a torch, caltrops, lead balls, a net, ranged ammunition, an anvil over an enemy's head, a chair to wedge under a door handle, oil to set fire to, a hornet nest to clear out a room, papers/badges/uniforms for gaining entry, an instrument to cause a distraction, manacles/handcuffs, a vial of poison, flowers to charm a girl, food and drink, etc. What can you guys come up with?
kalani
First Post
Major downside with this build is that you won't see a feat/ASI until 6th level at earliest (Rogue 4/Wiz 2), or if you prioritize wizard, 7th level (Rogue 3/Wizard 4). While delaying feats/ASIs in the later game is less of an issue, the one gained at 4th level should only be delayed for as long as absolutely needed. This is due to the fact that your first 1-2 feats / ASIs are the most important for your characters career. The longer you delay it, the less valuable it becomes.
It is the difference however between being a Dual-Wielding Rogue/Wizard with warcaster, alert (for initiative), or maybe healer (which combo's amazingly with fast hands) - and having a character without those feats; or if stats are more your thing, the difference between DEX 16 and DEX 18 (since I assume you would likely prioritize DEX over INT in the early game).
As a general rule, I strongly recommend picking up your first feat/ASI at 4th - 6th level at the latest, 7th level only if you can justify the delay as a result of the mix of class abilities but no further. Even then, I would not delay your second feat/ASI beyond 10th level. I myself, frequently get my first ASI/Feat at 5th level (1 level dip + 4 levels in a second class).
You want at least two of them by the time you hit 11th level, because you will need them. After the first two are under your belt, delaying the remainder isn't a big deal.
Variant Humans are the exception to this rule. Since they get a bonus feat at 1st level, they can easily afford to wait until 7th or 8th level to pick up their first ASI/Feat (from class). This would put them on par with non-vhuman characters in the short-term, but still put them at +1 in the long term. Then again, if you are going to delay your ASIs/Feats anyway, the question then becomes - why didn't you just pick [another race] instead?
If your only answer was because you wanted the feat benefits early, that is a weak answer - as levels 1-3 occur very quickly (typically 1 session each at 1st and 2nd level, and about 2-3 sessions at 3rd). If you are that impatient you can't wait for a feat's benefits for ~5 sessions, there is something wrong with your build. Typically, I choose vhumans because my build needs 2-3 ASIs/feats, or 2 feats & 1 ASI before hitting 11th level. That, or no other race leaps out as offering anything useful to my build, in which case I default to vHuman.
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For example, I have just started a new character, who will end up as a Battlemaster 3/Abjurer 17, or alternately as a Battlemaster 6/Abjurer 14 (undecided). This character will play similar to an EK, but with more spell versatility. I chose vHuman for this build because I needed both warcaster and great weapon master for the build, and because I ideally wanted to get 18 Strength by 11th level as well to offset the penalty from GWM.
My build progresses for the first 9 levels as follows:
Fighter 1 > Fighter 1/Abjurer 6 (haste, counterspell) > Battlemaster 3/Abjurer 6. After that, the two builds diverge as to whether I take Battlemaster 6/Abjurer 6; Battlemaster 4/Abjurer 8 > Battlemaster 6/Abjurer 8; or just finish the build pure wizard.
By 11th or 12th level, I want 18 STR, GWM, and Warcaster. This is a tall order, but was doable without vhuman.
5th level: Fighter 1/Abjurer 4 (GWM)
10th level: Fighter 4/Abjurer 6 (Warcaster).
However, I did not want to wait until half way through my characters career before picking up warcaster, as the benefit of this feat have diminishing returns in later game, and are more critical at lower levels (when your Con save is lower). I could have alternately gone Fighter 6/Abjurer 2 and picked up warcaster at 8th level as normal, but that too would delay access to haste/counterspell until 11th level (3 levels faster than an Eldritch Knight). At which point, the question then becomes - if I am willing to delay spellcasting that long, why didn't I choose Eldritch Knight?
These are the kinds of decisions you need to make when making your character. There is always a give/take, and nobody can tell you what the right decision is for you (only what they would do).
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Think about the role you would like to play in the group. If you run 3 levels of rogue to start with, then the other players may lock your character in as the trap disabler, lock picker, 2nd story work character. With that in mind, you may want to consider conjuring items that would be useful for the adventure.
I've played through Rage of Demons, ran a game of Red Hand of Doom, and played through about half of Storm Kings Thunder. Things that would have been handy from the rogue type character were: a disguise kit for sneaking into places, a door jam to keep monsters out of a room with no locks on the door, a life vest to keep characters from drowning, bits of scrap meat to distract the guard dogs/monster, a super warm set of cloths to keep the characters warm, items to be used for bribery in a tribal society, a row boat sized for 4 characters, a parachute, and a cage to trap animals (small and medium sized).
I don't recall what the limits are for the conjuration wizard, but some of the items you listed (rope, caltrops, ball bearings, ammunition) characters have plenty of.
I've played through Rage of Demons, ran a game of Red Hand of Doom, and played through about half of Storm Kings Thunder. Things that would have been handy from the rogue type character were: a disguise kit for sneaking into places, a door jam to keep monsters out of a room with no locks on the door, a life vest to keep characters from drowning, bits of scrap meat to distract the guard dogs/monster, a super warm set of cloths to keep the characters warm, items to be used for bribery in a tribal society, a row boat sized for 4 characters, a parachute, and a cage to trap animals (small and medium sized).
I don't recall what the limits are for the conjuration wizard, but some of the items you listed (rope, caltrops, ball bearings, ammunition) characters have plenty of.
I don't care much about the difference between 16 DEX and 18 DEX. I would care a lot more about missing a feat that's crucial for this build. Warcaster might be useful, depending on playstyle, but it might not be necessary. The conjuration ability isn't a spell that requires Concentration.
The Healer feat is an interesting idea though. I could potentially turn this character into a field medic that heals as a bonus action every turn... I hadn't considered that. I love the versatility of this build. Create almost any small item you can think of and use it on the same turn. I gotta think more about this, because yeah, if I decide to go this route, I'm delaying that first ASI for a long time. Maybe taking Variant Human really is the way to go here.
kalani
First Post
Every person's different. I too don't care much about the stats myself.... but there is a sizable portion of the game community that believes that hitting 20 in your prime stat should be your first objective - even before character-defining feats, or feats which have diminishing returns in the later game but can be critical to success in the mid-game (5th-10th), such as the aforementioned warcaster. It is true that some feats are better in the mid-late game (eg. resilient) and some feats retain their benefits throughout a characters career (alertness, observant, etc) but its variable.
Even then, the decision should always be about what you are trading off, what you are getting in exchange, and something people tend to forget - how long you are going to benefit from X.
A Fighter 1/Wizard X will benefit from their armor for 100% of their career. However, the longer the character waits before picking up the fighter level, the less benefit the armor will be. At one point, the question no longer becomes "increased AC for slightly delayed progression" and instead becomes - Increased AC for 9 levels, or X level spell slots/spell mastery/14th level archetype features, etc.
At some point, each person will decide for themselves whether that is a fair trade. I myself err on the side that, if you want the AC - take it early when you need it (and lack the HPs and magical defenses to compensate), and if you were able to "rough it" through those levels, I would then seriously question why I would think I need it now (esp. since AC doesn't scale anywhere nearly as efficiently as enemy to-hit bonuses).
Heck, my main character who is a Cleric 1/Wizard 15 (almost Wiz16), still doesn't have a 20 Intelligence (sitting on an 18). Why? Because I felt that things like warcaster and lucky were better choices for the character.
I am only speaking to my build because I am more familiar with it and can speak exactly to my reasons behind every decision (right down to my reasons to choose warcaster at 9th level, and why I chose lucky
first).
Speaking of the lucky, feat - this feat is easily the most under-estimated feat in the game, and is extraordinarily powerful on a high AC character. You can wait until the enemy rolls a crit, then turn that crit into a miss (better with high AC characters); if you see a nat 20 come up while rolling with disadvantage, you can roll a luck die and turn that hit/miss into a crit; you can make a critical saving throw succeed; or if you really want to cheese things - do stupid things like making ranged attacks while prone, and if you miss - rolling a luck die and turning your disadvantage into super advantage.
Even then, the decision should always be about what you are trading off, what you are getting in exchange, and something people tend to forget - how long you are going to benefit from X.
A Fighter 1/Wizard X will benefit from their armor for 100% of their career. However, the longer the character waits before picking up the fighter level, the less benefit the armor will be. At one point, the question no longer becomes "increased AC for slightly delayed progression" and instead becomes - Increased AC for 9 levels, or X level spell slots/spell mastery/14th level archetype features, etc.
At some point, each person will decide for themselves whether that is a fair trade. I myself err on the side that, if you want the AC - take it early when you need it (and lack the HPs and magical defenses to compensate), and if you were able to "rough it" through those levels, I would then seriously question why I would think I need it now (esp. since AC doesn't scale anywhere nearly as efficiently as enemy to-hit bonuses).
Heck, my main character who is a Cleric 1/Wizard 15 (almost Wiz16), still doesn't have a 20 Intelligence (sitting on an 18). Why? Because I felt that things like warcaster and lucky were better choices for the character.
I am only speaking to my build because I am more familiar with it and can speak exactly to my reasons behind every decision (right down to my reasons to choose warcaster at 9th level, and why I chose lucky
first).
Speaking of the lucky, feat - this feat is easily the most under-estimated feat in the game, and is extraordinarily powerful on a high AC character. You can wait until the enemy rolls a crit, then turn that crit into a miss (better with high AC characters); if you see a nat 20 come up while rolling with disadvantage, you can roll a luck die and turn that hit/miss into a crit; you can make a critical saving throw succeed; or if you really want to cheese things - do stupid things like making ranged attacks while prone, and if you miss - rolling a luck die and turning your disadvantage into super advantage.
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kalani
First Post
Now in respect to your build specifically - it really depends on what you are going for. I myself would love to cheese every option of the fast hands ability I can; options are always better, and being able to throw out d6+level+4 HPs once/character/short rest as a bonus action is amazing. You would make clerics wish their healing word was half that good. Then there is the cost/HP as well. Healing potions (50gp) cost approx 5gp/hp, but IIRC the math on a healers kit + healer feat adds up to around 5cp/HP. On a Thief, its even better - as you can throw these out as a bonus action.
Haven't gotten around to playing a rogue yet, but when I do - I plan to play a Thief with healer feat specifically for that reason.
One thing you should note however, is that while minor conjuration can create objects, it can't create a healers kit (as this isn't a single object, but a small collection of related objects). As such, while you could minor conjure a single bandage, or a single needle, you couldn't conjure the bandages, suture thread, and needle as a single use of minor conjuration.
Speaking of minor conjuration - I have used this ability to devastating effect in the past. For example, I conjured a 3' metal box with a self-locking lid beside my gnome character; climbed inside; and closed the lid so that I could avoid being killed by an enemy. I could have just taken the dodge action, but two attacks at disadvantage vs. one guaranteed miss was my reasoning behind it (disengage wouldn't have helped me as the enemy had already separated me from the party, and they would still follow and multiattack). I should add though, that some DMs will rule that even a simple scratch might meet the qualification of "taking damage", and as such, cause the object to vanish. This was my DMs interpretation, so as soon as the metal box was hit, it vanished and my 2'7" gnome was still standing after the guaranteed miss.
I kind of broke the DM that day - had the DM stammering "Wait, did you just create a gnome-in-a-box". And I said "Yep" with a smug look on my face.
One final point - Fast Hands won't help you with healing potions, or magic item useage. While it isn't stated clearly in the PHB - the DMG clearly states that using a magic item is the "Use Magic Item" action, not the "Use Object" action. As such, Thief Rogues cannot use healing potions as a bonus action (even they require an action). Likewise, if a magic item allows you to cast a spell, you are performing the "cast a spell" action - so again, you couldn't cast a fireball from a wand/staff as a bonus action either.
Haven't gotten around to playing a rogue yet, but when I do - I plan to play a Thief with healer feat specifically for that reason.
One thing you should note however, is that while minor conjuration can create objects, it can't create a healers kit (as this isn't a single object, but a small collection of related objects). As such, while you could minor conjure a single bandage, or a single needle, you couldn't conjure the bandages, suture thread, and needle as a single use of minor conjuration.
Speaking of minor conjuration - I have used this ability to devastating effect in the past. For example, I conjured a 3' metal box with a self-locking lid beside my gnome character; climbed inside; and closed the lid so that I could avoid being killed by an enemy. I could have just taken the dodge action, but two attacks at disadvantage vs. one guaranteed miss was my reasoning behind it (disengage wouldn't have helped me as the enemy had already separated me from the party, and they would still follow and multiattack). I should add though, that some DMs will rule that even a simple scratch might meet the qualification of "taking damage", and as such, cause the object to vanish. This was my DMs interpretation, so as soon as the metal box was hit, it vanished and my 2'7" gnome was still standing after the guaranteed miss.
I kind of broke the DM that day - had the DM stammering "Wait, did you just create a gnome-in-a-box". And I said "Yep" with a smug look on my face.
One final point - Fast Hands won't help you with healing potions, or magic item useage. While it isn't stated clearly in the PHB - the DMG clearly states that using a magic item is the "Use Magic Item" action, not the "Use Object" action. As such, Thief Rogues cannot use healing potions as a bonus action (even they require an action). Likewise, if a magic item allows you to cast a spell, you are performing the "cast a spell" action - so again, you couldn't cast a fireball from a wand/staff as a bonus action either.
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Azurewraith
Explorer
Wouldn't a Longbow be to big?
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