Constitution? 14th Amendment?

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tomBitonti

Adventurer
From Slate:

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slat...s_to_children_of_undocumented_immigrants.html

“Earlier this year in Dallas, worries intensified when the county stopped accepting the Mexican ID and school board trustee Miguel Solis voiced concerns about enrollment snags for U.S.-born citizen children,” according to the Dallas Morning News. Pittman, however, denied the appeal writing that a full hearing is needed to resolve the matter because there is a “compelling governmental interest in regulating with care the process of accessing birth certificates.”

What I don't understand is how the governments interest makes any difference. However compelling, such interest would seem to be insufficient to deny a basic right.

TomB
 

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Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
From Slate:

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slat...s_to_children_of_undocumented_immigrants.html

“Earlier this year in Dallas, worries intensified when the county stopped accepting the Mexican ID and school board trustee Miguel Solis voiced concerns about enrollment snags for U.S.-born citizen children,” according to the Dallas Morning News. Pittman, however, denied the appeal writing that a full hearing is needed to resolve the matter because there is a “compelling governmental interest in regulating with care the process of accessing birth certificates.”

What I don't understand is how the governments interest makes any difference. However compelling, such interest would seem to be insufficient to deny a basic right.

TomB
Again, this was a preliminary hearing, so just the presence of an argument that the government has a compelling interest means that the judge has to deny the request for emergency relief and let it go to trial. In these kind of hearings, evidence is not weighed and arguments are taken at face value. The trial may very well determine that the interest doesn't pass scrutiny.

But, as for the argument of compelling interest, your rights have been curtailed in a number of areas based on compelling interest. For instance, libel laws exist as a restriction on free speech because the government has a completing interest to limit that kind of speech.
 


tomBitonti

Adventurer
Again, this was a preliminary hearing, so just the presence of an argument that the government has a compelling interest means that the judge has to deny the request for emergency relief and let it go to trial. In these kind of hearings, evidence is not weighed and arguments are taken at face value. The trial may very well determine that the interest doesn't pass scrutiny.

But, as for the argument of compelling interest, your rights have been curtailed in a number of areas based on compelling interest. For instance, libel laws exist as a restriction on free speech because the government has a completing interest to limit that kind of speech.

Isn't it up to the government to show cause? Here very basic rights of the infant (access to essential services, including possible life critical medical care, and freedom to move about without restriction) are being imposed by the governments strictures on obtaining a birth certificate. I would expect the government would need to show a very clear and specific harm to avoid an immediate order.

This seemed to be along the lines of police subjecting folks in a building which was a known crime hot spot to searches, compared with a quarantine of the same building because a tenant was shown to have a highly communicable and deadly disease.

Thx!
TomB
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
The original issue is that children of immigrant parents, but born in the US, were being denied birth certificates.

*Someone* in there is probably being a racist twit.

Have you actually read anything of the case or are you assuming racism because it's Texas, there are immigrants from Mexico involved, and you don't like the ruling as presented to you in headlines? Do you even know what they case is about (hint: it's not exactly what the headlines or articles linked so far say)?

Because the ruling on the preliminary injunction -- a difficult thing to get generally -- is well written and exhaustive, and there's not much of a handle for racism to grab in the arguments made by the defense.
 

Tonguez

A suffusion of yellow
Have you actually read anything of the case or are you assuming racism because it's Texas, there are immigrants from Mexico involved, and you don't like the ruling as presented to you in headlines? Do you even know what they case is about (hint: it's not exactly what the headlines or articles linked so far say)?

Because the ruling on the preliminary injunction -- a difficult thing to get generally -- is well written and exhaustive, and there's not much of a handle for racism to grab in the arguments made by the defense.

would you like to explain it for those of us with no interest in doing further background research and who aren't Americans?

From what I see Texas use to allow US born children of Mexicans to have birth cerficates and access to citizenship rights, but this is now being denied due to an abritary decision by a bureaucrat to say that Mexicans no longer qualify.

am I wrong?
 
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Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
Isn't it up to the government to show cause?
Yes, and no. In a hearing for a preliminary injunction, the plaintiffs have the burden of meeting the four prongs of the test used. The judge ruled they met the first -- that irreparable injury was being caused -- by determining that the plaintiffs fundamental rights were being impinged, an automatic irreparable injury. This also invoked strict scrutiny on the second prong -- that the government must have a compelling interest and that the means used are the least restrictive possible. When the judge reviewed this, he determined that the state does have a compelling interest in restricting access to children's birth certificates, and that the rule being used was well researched and not unfairly targeted. The plaintiffs failed to make the case that the government's rules clearly violated the compelling interest case even when considered under strict scrutiny -- and that's a high, high bar and the judge was very thorough.

It might be worthwhile here to discuss a few facts of the case, because the articles I've seen written about it don't clearly show the issue. The issue isn't that children born in the US can't get birth certificates -- they have them, each and every one. It's that the parents cannot later get a copy of the birth certificate because they cannot provide sufficient identification to show that they are qualified to receive a copy of the child's birth certificate. This is a distinction without much effect, though, because not being able to get a copy of the child's birth certificate is essentially like the child not having one at all. However, the main point of contention is that, in 2008, Texas changed the required identification lists to exclude passports without visas (or visa exemptions) and consular identification cards. This, effectively, locks out a group of illegal immigrants because they do not have other kinds of identification that would be accepted. Texas justifies this change by pointing to the lack of tracking for consular identification (although this may have recently changed, it's unclear to what extent), ie, who's gotten one, where they got it, who they were, what documentation they had to provide, etc.. In short, anyone could get multiple consular IDs from multiple consulates and there was no way to find out if they had done so. The passports were an issue because unless they were presented in the office, they could not be verified as valid without a visa. Both of these changes were heavily researched, are followed in other states, and the FBI doesn't consider consular ID or non-visa passport copies to be valid ID either. So that looks like solid, non-targeted reasoning to disallow those identifications for the purposes of a preliminary judgement where the plaintiff carries the burden.


Here very basic rights of the infant (access to essential services, including possible life critical medical care, and freedom to move about without restriction) are being imposed by the governments strictures on obtaining a birth certificate. I would expect the government would need to show a very clear and specific harm to avoid an immediate order.
The ruling did determine that such harms were occurring, but it also determined that the plaintiffs failed to show that the restrictions placed by the government were unreasonable, had no compelling interest, and were not the least restrictive.

In court, however, the plaintiffs don't carry the full burden and the government will have to do a lot of work to show that this is not the least restrictive method. Given the case presented for the preliminary hearing, though, it's pretty clear that Texas has a compelling interest to restrict identification documentation to only those qualified to receive it. Whether or not this method is the least restrictive, though, remains to be seen.

This seemed to be along the lines of police subjecting folks in a building which was a known crime hot spot to searches, compared with a quarantine of the same building because a tenant was shown to have a highly communicable and deadly disease.

I don't follow this. Are you trying to show the difference between interests? Because you're mixing tests if you are. Subjecting people to searches in a high crime area is an example of the government having a compelling interest to do violate a fundamental right as much as a quarantine of a deadly disease is. However, the searches are not the least restrictive means available to reduce crime (more cops on the beat is) while quarantining a deadly disease may very well be the least restrictive method of meeting the interest. The latter, though, is ripe for a lawsuit if it occurs. If you recall the recent ebola cases in the US and the legal threats and counterthreats around quarantines and the infected and possibly infected? Hot button issue, no idea how a specific instance would fair in court.
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
would you like to explain it for those of us with no interest in doing further background research and who aren't Americans?

From what I say Texas use to allow US born children of Mexicans to have birth cerficates and access to citizenship rights, but this is now being denied due to an abritary decision by a bureaucrat to say that Mexicans no longer qualify.

am I wrong?

Yes, mostly and kind of. See what I wrote to Tony above.
 

Kramodlog

Naked and living in a barrel
The issue isn't that children born in the US can't get birth certificates -- they have them, each and every one. It's that the parents cannot later get a copy of the birth certificate because they cannot provide sufficient identification to show that they are qualified to receive a copy of the child's birth certificate. This is a distinction without much effect, though, because not being able to get a copy of the child's birth certificate is essentially like the child not having one at all. However, the main point of contention is that, in 2008, Texas changed the required identification lists to exclude passports without visas (or visa exemptions) and consular identification cards.
And for you, this policy isn't motivated by racism or to pader to racists because no policy maker explicitly said it was motivated by racism or because you see no racism in this policy?
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
And for you, this policy isn't motivated by racism or to pader to racists because no policy maker explicitly said it was motivated by racism or because you see no racism in this policy?

You need to explain why you think it is racist if you're charging that it's racist. You can't just go 'that's racist' and have everyone else do the work to prove you wrong. It's your assertion: back it.
 
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