Constitution? 14th Amendment?

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Kramodlog

Naked and living in a barrel
You can't just go 'that's racist'
I haven't said that. Others have. You seem to disgree. I'm curious by nature, so I ask questions and I'll ask this one again. For you this policy isn't motivated by racism or paders to racists because no policy maker explicitly said so or because you see no racism in this policy?
 

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Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
I haven't said that. Others have. You seem to disgree. I'm curious by nature, so I ask questions and I'll ask this one again. For you this policy isn't motivated by racism or paders to racists because no policy maker explicitly said so or because you see no racism in this policy?

If you don't have the argument, and they haven't made one to respond to, I'm not sure what the point is. I'm not going to guess what someone thinks is racist about this, so until you get an actual point to respond to, you're just going to have to remain curious as to how I'd respond to an unmade argument.

In other words, I'm not still beating my wife, go ask someone else.
 

tomBitonti

Adventurer
It might be worthwhile here to discuss a few facts of the case, because the articles I've seen written about it don't clearly show the issue.

... text omitted ...

The ruling did determine that such harms were occurring, but it also determined that the plaintiffs failed to show that the restrictions placed by the government were unreasonable, had no compelling interest, and were not the least restrictive.

... text omitted ...

I don't follow this. Are you trying to show the difference between interests? Because you're mixing tests if you are. Subjecting people to searches in a high crime area is an example of the government having a compelling interest to do violate a fundamental right as much as a quarantine of a deadly disease is. However, the searches are not the least restrictive means available to reduce crime (more cops on the beat is) while quarantining a deadly disease may very well be the least restrictive method of meeting the interest. The latter, though, is ripe for a lawsuit if it occurs. If you recall the recent ebola cases in the US and the legal threats and counterthreats around quarantines and the infected and possibly infected? Hot button issue, no idea how a specific instance would fair in court.

Hi,

Thanks for the detailed reply! Do you have a link to more detailed information? The newspaper articles provide very scant information.

Maybe a difference of viewpoint. I'm imagining a dialog something like:

Parent's lawyer: The restrictions are unreasonable. The process denies the ability to obtain a birth certificate, and the government has provided no reasonable alternative process.

Judge (to the government's lawyer): Is there an alternative process?

Absent an affirmative answer, along with some details, I'd be rather in favor of the parents.

The last paragraph was to put some context to show cases where rights are curtailed, in one case, unreasonably (the first case matches New York's "stop and frisk" policy, which was challenged and ruled against), and a second case which seems at least possibly reasonable. (I'm OK with it, even though the quarantine might increase potential harm to uninfected persons who are confined with infected persons. I actually thought this was pretty well settled as an acceptable policy, but that's just my vague sense of it, not in reference to anything specific.)

I'm finding that I don't like the term "compelling government interest", since I don't view the government as having an interest other that what is a restatement of safeguarding a right of the people (or of specific persons). I'd rather be told what right of the people is being protected.

Thx!
TomB
 

Kramodlog

Naked and living in a barrel
I'm not going to guess what someone thinks is racist about this
That wasn't my question. I'm curious to know why you do not think this change in policy is motivated by racism and/or designed to appeal to racists. Correct me if I'm wrong, but that is your position on the matter, no?
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
Hi,

Thanks for the detailed reply! Do you have a link to more detailed information? The newspaper articles provide very scant information.

Maybe a difference of viewpoint. I'm imagining a dialog something like:

Parent's lawyer: The restrictions are unreasonable. The process denies the ability to obtain a birth certificate, and the government has provided no reasonable alternative process.

Judge (to the government's lawyer): Is there an alternative process?

Absent an affirmative answer, along with some details, I'd be rather in favor of the parents.

The last paragraph was to put some context to show cases where rights are curtailed, in one case, unreasonably (the first case matches New York's "stop and frisk" policy, which was challenged and ruled against), and a second case which seems at least possibly reasonable. (I'm OK with it, even though the quarantine might increase potential harm to uninfected persons who are confined with infected persons. I actually thought this was pretty well settled as an acceptable policy, but that's just my vague sense of it, not in reference to anything specific.)

I'm finding that I don't like the term "compelling government interest", since I don't view the government as having an interest other that what is a restatement of safeguarding a right of the people (or of specific persons). I'd rather be told what right of the people is being protected.

Thx!
TomB
I found the actual ruling on the preliminary hearing and read it. You can read it here.

As for compelling interest, the government often has compelling interest to restrict rights. That's not enough -- it's necessary buy not sufficient -- but there are many cases where governance runs up against rights. I referenced libel laws as a restriction on free speech earlier. That's a clear case where government interest, eq the protection of citizens against libel, rises to a high enough bar to restrict the fundamental right of free speech. Marriage is another. You have the right to be married, but the government has a compelling interest in controlling those marriages to prevent polygamy and to ensure that benefits are provided accurately so they can control marriage via the issuance of marriage licenses. The thing to worry about is if the courts begin to fail to apply strict scrutiny in the consideration of these cases and just starts to buy into government's desires to control. That hasn't happened, and it's not happening in this case (the judge waxes verbosely on his deliberations applying strict scrutiny to this case, frez).

That wasn't my question. I'm curious to know why you do not think this change in policy is motivated by racism and/or designed to appeal to racists. Correct me if I'm wrong, but that is your position on the matter, no?

Heh, that's funny. You think I should defend something against something that's not being argued, ie that this isn't racist even though there's nothing to say that it is (yet). Get off your horse and make an argument that it is racist if you'd like to see me argue against that. Until then, no, I have no arguments for why this law isn't blue, orbiting Saturn, racist, or in love with unicorns. Until you fetch some arguments for why it, indeed, does love unicorns, at least.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
Have you actually read anything of the case or are you assuming racism because it's Texas, there are immigrants from Mexico involved, and you don't like the ruling as presented to you in headlines? Do you even know what they case is about (hint: it's not exactly what the headlines or articles linked so far say)?

As I noted to someone else recently - please don't cast disagreement as ignorance.

I know what the case is about. Let us recognize that the stated legal reasons may well be justifications or rationalizations of what is basically a racist intent. Note also that what I said was that *someone* in there is likely being a racist twit - I didn't specify who. The fact that it is in Texas, which has a recent history of issues, is suggestive, but not material. The fact that what's going on disproportionately impacts non-Caucasians is material to considering it racist.

Very simply - this case shouldn't have been necessary. The kids were born on US soil. To my understanding, nobody in the case questions that statement of fact. That makes the kids citizens, no matter what the status of the parents may be. Therefore, details of the parent's documentation, or lack thereof, should not be an issue in whether the kid is recognized as a citizen, and thus eligible to receive services like any other citizen. Any government policy that gets in the way of that recognition is likely a violation of the equal protection clause.
 
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Kramodlog

Naked and living in a barrel
You think I should defend something
No. I'm asking why you do not believe it the policy to racially motivated, not to defend anything. That isn't the same thing. So, again, why do you believe this change in policy is not motivated by racism and designed to appeal to racists?

there's nothing to say that it is.
What standard would you use to say that there is racist, racially motivated and/or desgined to appeal to racists? Aside from officials explicitly saying so, since any official with a head on their shoulders won't do that in the current PC culture.
 

tomBitonti

Adventurer
Wait, I thought the primary motivation here was protectionism, amplified by fairly hateful and inflammatory rhetoric against foreigners. I can see there being ethnic and racial undertones as factors which are being used to inflame the issue, but simple protectionism seems to be the larger motivation.

I'm thinking we need to backup and present more information about Texas and legal changes which relate to immigrations and find some common understanding before we can hope to discuss the motivations thereof with any great success.

Thx!
TomB
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
As I noted to someone else recently - please don't cast disagreement as ignorance.
I didn't, I asked because the east you're taking about the facts seemed to indicate that you might not know and I wanted to eliminate that as an issue.


I know what the case is about. Let us recognize that the stated legal reasons may well be justifications or rationalizations of what is basically a racist intent.
Trivial. That something is possible is not an indication that something obtains in a specific case. This is a non argument.

Note also that what I said was that *someone* in there is likely being a racist twit - I didn't specify who.
So? What does this have to do with the price of tea in China? No one claimed you did.

The fact that it is in Texas, which has a recent history of issues, is suggestive, but not material.
Then why mention it, if not to be prejudicial?

The fact that what's going on disproportionately impacts non-Caucasians is material to considering it racist.
Finally, a point! That is true, but it's not sufficient for racism. Well, its not true because most Hispanics are Caucasians, but I get the drift.

What I get here is a bunch of not reasons and one actual reason for you to label this as racism.

Very simply - this case shouldn't have been necessary. The kids were born on US soil. To my understanding, nobody in the case questions that statement of fact. That makes the kids citizens, no matter what the status of the parents may be. Therefore, details of the parent's documentation, or lack thereof, should not be an issue in whether the kid is recognized as a citizen, and thus eligible to receive services like any other citizen. Any government policy that gets in the way of that recognition is likely a violation of the equal protection clause.

I'm sorry, but the above makes it seem as if you don't know the particulars of the case. Perhaps you misspoke, or in haste and enthusiasm brought in issues not covered, but this case has nothing to do with children being born in the US being denied citizenship. That hasn't happened in any of the cases brought before the court on this issue. This case is about the ability to get a copy of the birth certificate after the fact (allof the children in this case have birth certificates) and the state of Texas refusing to accept certain forms of identification to verify the parents have the legal right to obtain a copy. Those rules are in accordance with FBI standards and are not arbitrary or targeted towards anyone. Yes, it means that illegals will have more difficulty, but that applies to all illegals, not just Hispanic ones. So the state is following accepted guidelines for their law and is in concert with federal law enforcement on those standards. Hardly a racist thing.

The judge has grave concerns about the impact on rights of the plaintiffs, and rightly so. However, given the extensive evidence backing the state on where their rules come from and that the state has a compelling interest to protect vital identification documents, he ruled that the plaintiffs had not met the high burden of proof necessary for injunctive relief. That is also not racist.

Essentially, your argument boils down to: it's Texas, and we all know how they are. That's offensive and stereotypical.
 
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Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
No. I'm asking why you do not believe it the policy to racially motivated, not to defend anything. That isn't the same thing. So, again, why do you believe this change in policy is not motivated by racism and designed to appeal to racists?
Yes, exactly, you're asking me to come up with reasons why it may be racist and then defend against those. Asking me why I think it's not racist without an argument for it being racist is like asking me why I think a blue sky isn't racist. Things default to not being racist unless there's a reason for them to be labeled racist. So, again, unless you provide that reason, I have nothing to say because I'm not in the business of explaining why blue skies aren't racist.

What standard would you use to say that there is racist, racially motivated and/or desgined to appeal to racists? Aside from officials explicitly saying so, since any official with a head on their shoulders won't do that in the current PC culture.
It's good form to answer your own rhetorical questions before you insist others answer them. Especially when the ask is for a blanket definition of what's racist. You go first.
 

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