D&D 5E Context Switching Paralysis, or Why we Will Always Have the Thief Debate

hawkeyefan

Legend
Oh it's absolutely possible. In fact my very next sentence was to admit the possibility that he is just a wiser person with better judgment than I am. But as a refutation of my claim, that if you DM long enough you will run into a situation where you regret saying "Yes", bragging to me that you've DMed for four whole years is just funny. Yes there is a situation where grognard neck beards like me can totally be too dismissive of players with less experience. But there is also a counter-point to that where someone decides they absolutely know more about DMing than someone that has been doing it ten times longer than they have.

Bragging? No, I don’t think so. You said @EzekielRaiden had not been DMing long and he said he’d been doing it for four years.

Clearly, you don’t think that’s enough to have earned him the wisdom needed to do the job. But based on your awful take on the rule of cool, I’d advise him to be unconcerned with your opinion.
 

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Celebrim

Legend
But based on your awful take on the rule of cool...

As far as my take on the Rule of Cool, you don't have to take it from me. You could google "Rule of Cool" and "Rule of Cool RPG" and get pages and pages of discussion of the Rule of Cool that will often look a lot like what I'm saying here. I think the community consensus on the Rule of Cool is now pretty much that it has limited utility and you should use it very sparingly.

One thing that actually ticks me off is when certain DMs start bragging about how they are much better DMs than those old school DMs because they are using some new hot paradigm whether it's "No Myth", "Rule of Cool", "Say Yes or Roll the Dice", or "Fail Foward" or "Success with Consequences" , and when you query them about their play to see if you can learn something, and to see how they deal with the consequences of using those paradigms you find that they aren't using the paradigm at all really, or they are using them very inconsistently or even rarely, and that the only utility of saying they do this thing is so that they can feel they are just so much better than other people. Which they tend to do a lot more than they actually use or understand the paradigm they claim to be following.
 

billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him)
And I see it as "What does it harm to let Legolas do this, other than possibly offending Celebrim's sensibilities?" See, it's not my scene the player is trying to "cheese" with "unnecessary showboating." It is, or should be, all of ours at the table. If Legolas is trying to get around the mechanics (like, trying to move farther in one round than his movement would normally allow), then I might disallow it because it wouldn't be fair to the other players. But otherwise, again: what's the harm?
I think the question of “what harm does it do“ is answered by “where do we go from here”? In the case of action moviemaking, it leads to the problem of topping what went before. You look at the Star Wars prequels, the Hobbit trilogy, and LotR and you see the damage it causes. Once Legolas jumped on the cave troll, then shield-surfed down the steps, the third movie is saying “well, we wowed the crowd twice, but we’ve done those things now” so they try to top the prior action with more spectacle (like the silly oliphant thing). Doing anything similar would just be ho hum. And this can eventually lead to the Hobbit trilogy of not enough story spread over too much movie runtime… and then fill in with action spectacle.

RPGs may not be quite the same, but Rule of Cool does lend itself to a sense of forced escalation because, while it may have been cool to do that thing once, it doesn’t really support that becoming a standard thing. Because if it’s a standard thing, it’s not doable under the Rule of Cool. This is, however, one area where narrative-oriented features may shine. With those, you’re not allowing exceptions to normal abilities because they‘re ”cool” and fresh. Those exceptions are built into the normal rules and are flexible and open enough to do what you need them to do. For example, Mutants and Masterminds allows PCs to use unpurchased power effects as “extra effort”. The player pushes their hero’s power in unplanned ways as part of the game system. It’s incredibly flexible but not allowable simply because it seems cool at the time. It’s an inherent feature and, yes, it allows you to do pretty cool things without leading to Top THAT escalation.
 

EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
As far as my take on the Rule of Cool, you don't have to take it from me. You could google "Rule of Cool" and "Rule of Cool RPG" and get pages and pages of discussion of the Rule of Cool that will often look a lot like what I'm saying here. I think the community consensus on the Rule of Cool is now pretty much that it has limited utility and you should use it very sparingly.

One thing that actually ticks me off is when certain DMs start bragging about how they are much better DMs than those old school DMs because they are using some new hot paradigm whether it's "No Myth", "Rule of Cool", "Say Yes or Roll the Dice", or "Fail Foward" or "Success with Consequences" , and when you query them about their play to see if you can learn something, and to see how they deal with the consequences of using those paradigms you find that they aren't using the paradigm at all really, or they are using them very inconsistently or even rarely, and that the only utility of saying they do this thing is so that they can feel they are just so much better than other people. Which they tend to do a lot more than they actually use or understand the paradigm they claim to be following.
I have no interest in bragging. Frankly, I always fear I suck as DM and my players only stay to humor me. Their assurances don't make such non-rational anxieties go away. I only responded as I did because you made years-of-experience a qualification for being allowed to have an opinion on the matter.

I don't claim to do anything special. I do what Dungeon World tells me. I didn't invent any of that. I reap crop sown by others' hands. "If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of Giants." I'm not better than anyone else.

Studying the rules, methods, and styles of past games is important, both for what they did right, and what they did wrong. I'll never say otherwise. It would be foolish to pretend that nothing can be learned from past efforts in such a nascent art form.

I have an ethos that matters to me (embracing healthy, non-harmful enthusiasm), but that's an attitude, not a design choice. I will quite happily evangelize for that ethos. I genuinely believe it makes for the best possible gaming no matter what style you favor. But that ethos wasn't some magic revelation, some arcane secret that only I, superultramegahyperOMGWTFBBQVCRgenius Ezekiel, could possibly come up with and promulgate in the world. It's just something I think more people should do.
 

hawkeyefan

Legend
I have no interest in bragging. Frankly, I always fear I suck as DM and my players only stay to humor me. Their assurances don't make such non-rational anxieties go away. I only responded as I did because you made years-of-experience a qualification for being allowed to have an opinion on the matter.

I think being a bit concerned with one’s ability is a healthy attitude to have. It indicates a level of self awareness and curiosity that I’d say is required to improve at something. Examining our own play can be tough, but it’s essential if we want to improve.

Like I said, there are a lot of people who assume they know it all and can’t learn anything new.
 

EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
I think the question of “what harm does it do“ is answered by “where do we go from here”? In the case of action moviemaking, it leads to the problem of topping what went before. You look at the Star Wars prequels, the Hobbit trilogy, and LotR and you see the damage it causes. Once Legolas jumped on the cave troll, then shield-surfed down the steps, the third movie is saying “well, we wowed the crowd twice, but we’ve done those things now” so they try to top the prior action with more spectacle (like the silly oliphant thing). Doing anything similar would just be ho hum. And this can eventually lead to the Hobbit trilogy of not enough story spread over too much movie runtime… and then fill in with action spectacle.

RPGs may not be quite the same, but Rule of Cool does lend itself to a sense of forced escalation because, while it may have been cool to do that thing once, it doesn’t really support that becoming a standard thing. Because if it’s a standard thing, it’s not doable under the Rule of Cool. This is, however, one area where narrative-oriented features may shine. With those, you’re not allowing exceptions to normal abilities because they‘re ”cool” and fresh. Those exceptions are built into the normal rules and are flexible and open enough to do what you need them to do. For example, Mutants and Masterminds allows PCs to use unpurchased power effects as “extra effort”. The player pushes their hero’s power in unplanned ways as part of the game system. It’s incredibly flexible but not allowable simply because it seems cool at the time. It’s an inherent feature and, yes, it allows you to do pretty cool things without leading to Top THAT escalation.
This is a fair concern: how do you address the possibility of "scope creep" or the like?

Part of my answer is to have several different overlapping or interconnecting focus points, so that the players are comfortable with the scope sometimes scaling down from one scene to another. Another part is to just be mindful and leave myself room to maneuver. Aim high, but not the highest I can possibly shoot for. A third part is introducing changes that arise as a result of the change of scope, which cause new concerns to develop that were not relevant before.

An example of that third seems warranted. In my DW game, Undertake a Perilous Journey rolls became somewhat routine after a while, in part because the Ranger (who is currently on hiatus) was super good at them, and in part because we had three high-Wis characters in the party. I reflected on this for a long time, not doing anything specific (because I wanted the players to enjoy a period of doing well and riding high, as it were.) Eventually, I came upon the idea of adding a fourth role to the standard three--a role that should naturally not be much of a concern for a low-level party, but naturally something that a high-level party, or at least this high-level party, would start to worry about.

I settled on "Stealth" (which sadly doesn't have a nice occupational name like Trailblazer, Scout, or Quartermaster.) For low-level parties, it...pretty well makes sense that you don't really care about covering your tracks. You just want to get to the end of the journey as safely as possible. But for our party, at high level, where they have been drawn into much political intrigue and have to be careful about all sorts of information, getting to where they wish to go without being followed or traced is in fact actually quite important now. It's not so important that it can't be ignored every now and then, but it's important enough that the party is cautious about it. The players were quite happy with this proposal, and the new presence of this role for Undertake a Perilous Journey has added an extra layer of richness and complication to things.

Also, perhaps humorously, I have developed some house rules which do something not too far off from your "unpurchased power as 'extra effort'" example from M&M. For a "max level" (11th) character, spending XP can let you temporarily gain moves you don't have yet, or even gain moves outright if you have enough XP to spend. It's worked pretty well for keeping open advancement even past when DW would normally "end."
 

Celebrim

Legend
I have no interest in bragging. Frankly, I always fear I suck as DM and my players only stay to humor me.

If they show up to your sessions, you are doing your job right. When they remember the things that happened in your game, take that as praise. Occasionally they may even tell you, "Good job. That was a great session." But you don't need to depend on that. If they made them laugh, that is praise. If they care about your NPCs, either loving or hating them, that is praise. If they are "Can we play again next week?", you are a good DM.

I have an ethos that matters to me (embracing healthy, non-harmful enthusiasm), but that's an attitude, not a design choice.

Be the GM you would want to have if you were a player.

I am all the time studying the game and trying to get better. There are things that it took a slow learner like me 20 years to learn. You have some advantage over me in that a lot of people have made mistakes and wrote down what they learned and they can share them over the internet.

But when I had been DMing like eight years, I thought about the same thing you do about a lot of Gygax's DMing advice, and I don't feel that way anymore. It might be helpful to think about just how many players he had had and how many games he had run by the time he wrote the 1e DMG. Or it might be helpful to try running campaigns with 60 players if you want to increase your sympathy for his writing.
 



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