Converting original D&D and Mystara monsters

[freyar]

Even if it disallows "take 20", for this spell to bind a victim for any length of time its break DC really has to exceed 20+Str bonus otherwise the victim is bound to snap them with a bit of perseverance.

Yes, perhaps the way to do it is to fix the DC (and chain hp) based on CL, so a goatling can boost them with Spell Magnitude Empowerment (and perhaps Coven) in order to bind tougher subjects.

I don't object to something simple, such as multiple captives apply a Break DC penalty equal to the number of chained victims.

The original spell isn't explicit about how many captives it can chain up. All the victims have to be within the spell's 3' per level radius and presumably they have to have at least 1 hit point per limb otherwise they'll shatter at the slightest movement.

It's noticeable that the spell makes no mention of a HD limit like the lesser binding spell - I guess this is deliberate and reflects the binding's ability to chain demon lords like Bielgorna (although he only has 20 HD according to his stats).

I think I'd rather just not have a Break DC penalty. This is complicated enough as it is. Otherwise, I guess I could see a penalty of 1 per two chained victims.

 

[Cleon]

Yes, perhaps the way to do it is to fix the DC (and chain hp) based on CL, so a goatling can boost them with Spell Magnitude Empowerment (and perhaps Coven) in order to bind tougher subjects.

That's what I was thinking. The difficulty should certainly have a caster-level element.

I think I'd rather just not have a Break DC penalty. This is complicated enough as it is. Otherwise, I guess I could see a penalty of 1 per two chained victims.

Well if we have a hp reduction for multiple victims then I reckon we ought to have a Break DC penalty as well. I'd make it more than 1 per two victims though. The original spell bound a single victim twice as strongly as it did two (assuming they both had the same number of limbs, that is!).

 

[freyar]

I'm not fond of an hp reduction for multiple victims/limbs, either, to be honest. It would probably be easier just to have a CL-based limit on the number of chained critters --- notably not on the HD of the victims.

 

[Cleon]

I'm not fond of an hp reduction for multiple victims/limbs, either, to be honest. It would probably be easier just to have a CL-based limit on the number of chained critters --- notably not on the HD of the victims.

Let's figure out some numbers and leave the arguing over multiple victims for later.

It occurs to me that we can figure out how the CL should relate to Break DC/hp/hardness values by deciding at what levels we want a Goatling to reliably bind a particular monster.

e.g. a Vrock has Str 23, and best attack +15 melee (2d6+6) plus Power Attack. Therefore, the chains would need to have a Break DC or at least 27 for the Vrock to be unable to break them by brute strength and have hardness 28 to be immune to damage from its bite (if it maxes out its Power Attack).

A Balor is Str 35, and best attack +33 melee (2d6+13) plus Power Attack (BAB +20), so the chains would need Break DC 33 and hardness 45 to be immune to harm.

A Goristro is Str 34 and best attack +34 melee (3d8+18) plus Power Attack (BAB +24), so the chains would need Break DC 33 and hardness 80 (!) to be unbreakable.

 

[freyar]

I don't know if we're going to be unbreakably binding a goristro without summon coven.

For numbers, vrocks are CR 9, so maybe it makes sense for a 13th to 15th level goatling to be able to bind them unbreakably. We're probably looking at an epic goatling to be able to bind a balor (CR 20) that securely, maybe CL 25 or 26. I'm not sure I'm seeing a great formula out of this, though. Maybe a break DC of 20+CL/2 and hardness maybe of 20+CL. That overdoes the hardness for the vrock, but I don't see any easy way out of it.

 

[Cleon]

I don't know if we're going to be unbreakably binding a goristro without summon coven.

For numbers, vrocks are CR 9, so maybe it makes sense for a 13th to 15th level goatling to be able to bind them unbreakably. We're probably looking at an epic goatling to be able to bind a balor (CR 20) that securely, maybe CL 25 or 26. I'm not sure I'm seeing a great formula out of this, though. Maybe a break DC of 20+CL/2 and hardness maybe of 20+CL. That overdoes the hardness for the vrock, but I don't see any easy way out of it.

Hmm... How about 12+CL for the Break DC and twice CL for the hardness? That gives "minimum CL for unbreakable chains" of 15th for a Vrock (Break DC 17-12 = CL 15th), 23rd for a Balor (Hardness 45/2 = CL 23rd).

That works OK for the Break DC, but I'm not so sure about the hardness. I'll try some other Demons for comparison and might as well add a couple of the nastier extraplanar undead:

Babau: CL 14th (min. Break DC 26)
Balor: CL 23rd (min. hardness 45)
Bebilith: CL 20th (min. Break DC 30)
Dretch: CL 10th (min. Break DC 22)
Glabrezu: CL 19th (min. Break DC 31 AND min. hardness 38)
Hezrou: CL 16th (min. hardness 31)
Marilith: CL 20th (min. hardness 39)
Nalfeshnee: CL 19th (min. hardness 37)
Quasit: CL 8th (min. Break DC 20)
Retriever: CL 19th (min. Break DC 31)
Succubus: CL 10th (min. Break DC 22)
Vrock: CL 15th (min. Break DC 27)
Devourer: CL 18th (min. Break DC 30)
Nightwalker: CL 23rd (min. Break DC 35)

Those Caster Levels appear to be in the right ballpark, more or less. The Goristo was an outlier, because it's superstrong and has a special ability that increases the effectiveness of its Power Attack feat.

Shall we plug the CL+12 and CL×2 formulae into the rough draft, fiddle around with them a bit more, or try a different approach?

Here's the calculations for the above beasties. It makes a big difference whether the creature has Power Attack or not.

Babau (CL 14th): Str 21 (min. Break DC 26 => min. CL 14th), Damage 1d6+5+7 (min. hardness 18 => CL 9th)

Balor (CL 23rd): Str 35 (min. Break DC 33 => min. CL 21st), Damage 1d6+5+7 (min. hardness 45 => CL 23rd)

Bebilith (CL 20th): Str 28 (min. Break DC 30 => min. CL 20th), Damage 2d6+9+12 (min. hardness 27 => CL 14th)

Dretch (CL 10th): Str 12 (min. Break DC 22 => min. CL 10th), Damage 1d6+1 (min. hardness 7 => CL 4th)

Glabrezu (CL 19th): Str 31 (min. Break DC 31 => min. CL 19th), Damage 2d8+10+12 (min. hardness 38 => CL 19th)

Hezrou (CL 16th): Str 21 (min. Break DC 25 => min. CL 14th), Damage 4d4+5+10 (min. hardness 31 => CL 16th)

Marilith (CL 20th): Str 29 (min. Break DC 30 => min. CL 18th), Damage 4d6+9+16 (min. hardness 39 => CL 20th)

Nalfeshnee (CL 19th): Str 25 (min. Break DC 28 => min. CL 16th), Damage 2d8+7+14 (min. hardness 37 => CL 19th)

Quasit (CL 8th): Str 8 (min. Break DC 20 => min. CL 8th), Damage 1d3-1 (min. hardness 1 => CL 1st)

Retriever (CL 19th): Str 31 (min. Break DC 31 => min. CL 19th), Damage 2d6+10 (min. hardness 22 => CL 11th)

Succubus (CL 10th): Str 13 (min. Break DC 22 => min. CL 10th), Damage 1d6+1 (min. hardness 7 => CL 4th)

Vrock (CL 15th): Str 23 (min. Break DC 27 => min. CL 15th), Damage 2d6+6+10 (min. hardness 28 => CL 14th)

Might as well add a couple of the nastier undead to the examples:

Devourer (CL 18th): Str 28 (min. Break DC 30 => min. CL 18th), Damage 1d6+9 (min. hardness 15 => CL 8th)

Nightwalker (CL 23rd): Str 38 (min. Break DC 35 => min. CL 23rd), Damage 2d6+16+10 (min. hardness 38 => CL 19th)

 

[freyar]

I'm happy enough with CL+12 and CL×2. There's no way to get it to work perfectly for every monster. They clearly weren't all designed to quite the same standards.

 

[Cleon]

I'm happy enough with CL+12 and CL×2. There's no way to get it to work perfectly for every monster. They clearly weren't all designed to quite the same standards.

OK, we can agree on that. I'll type up another rough draft when I'm feeling energetic.

 

[freyar]

Whenever you're ready.

 

[Cleon]

Whenever you're ready.

Okay, I propose changing the third paragraph to:

Victims shackled by the chains are fixed to the space they are in, but can still act. The chains are impervious to magic and all types of energy damage, prevent dimensional travel of any kind, and can restrain a victim regardless of its shape, substance, or plane of existence - meaning a victim cannot escape by using teleportation, shapechanging, etherealness or gaseous form abilities.

A victim can only escape the chains by sheer brute force. The chains can be shattered with a Strength check (Break DC equals caster level plus 12) or a single attack that inflicts damage that's at least twice the caster level. If the chains are broken they vanish instantly but the victim is still confined within the cage of force, which remains for the duration of the binding cage spell.