D&D 5E Convince me we're doing the Warlock wrong

[Lord Vangarel]

How long are you finding combats to last? At 2 spells per short rest, 2 short rests per long rest, and 6-8 encounters per day you get almost 1 spell per encounter.

The issue is that the party isn't getting lots of short rests. They're in the final chapter of HotDQ and without giving things away aren't really in a position to rest. They've kicked off big style and really should be having a unified response to their threat however if that happens no time for short rests and only eldritch blasts remain.

So far in 5th edition the warlock is the first class design that's really made us stop and think that perhaps the designers got this class wrong.

 

[Tony Vargas]

I thought about this but I think the effect on other characters would be bad. One of them is a fighter who regains an awful lot per short rest, another is a paladin who regains almost nothing so decreasing the time for a short rest would just boost the fighter more.

That's kinda the point. If you aren't getting a short rest, the fighter & warlock won't be getting to use their short-rest-recharge powers as much as they should. For the warlock, that's a big chunk of spell power. For the fighter, it's the relatively minor Second Wind, and usually-big-DPR Action Surge.

One suggestion the player made was to make the warlock spells recharge per encounter with a limit of say four times per day. What do you guys think of that?

Another thought I had was to increase the number of spell slots.

These both have the effect of singling out the warlock. If you're quite certain only the warlock is suffering from the lack of short rests - that the party couldn't use more opportunities to spend HD, that the fighter, for some reason, doesn't need Action Surge, etc - then they'd be reasonable alternatives for that reason. If the game were more carefully balanced, you'd want to avoid a change like that, for fear of unforeseen consequences.

The player is pretty disappointed in how the warlock is playing and is considering either multi-classing (something I'm not sure as DM I want) or dropping the character (again something I'd prefer not to happen).

There are 3 other arcane classes to choose from. He might like the Sorcerer or Wizard better.

Other things you could try: Just tweak your adventures so the party has more opportunities to take short rests. Back off time pressure a little, provide more 'safe places' in the environment. Or, you could give the warlock a spiffy item, like a wand, so he has something to do besides spam cantrips (though that's not supposed to be an ineffective thing for a warlock to do).

 

[Goemoe]

So far in 5th edition the warlock is the first class design that's really made us stop and think that perhaps the designers got this class wrong.

My friends are about to beginn playing a new group and two guys came up with the idea to play warlocks. I told them they might encounter exactly what you are telling us, which got them thinking. The point is: the designers did do nothing wrong. Your warlock player obviously did not read the rules carefully enough. The Warlock is a viably class but it is not straight forward like some other classes in 5E. Whoever chooses to play a Warlock should be sure about it and should know what he does.

That said, yes I believe in what I just wrote, but to be honest, I don't like this class at all. So hopefully I convinced my friends and they will play something else. Two out of three chars playing a Warlock during a campaign might suffocate the group with boredom.

 

[ad_hoc]

Thanks for the replies everyone.



He's taken the Mage armor one and a couple of utility invocations. We looked through the list last night discussing it after the game and there really doesn't seem to be many other choices for him.

What are his other choices? Maybe you can provide us with his stats, level, pact, patron, invocations, most used spells, etc.

Mage Armour on its own is pretty weak. You can just have studded leather for 1 less AC. If you are a ranged character you don't need to max out your AC.

One suggestion the player made was to make the warlock spells recharge per encounter with a limit of say four times per day. What do you guys think of that?

Another thought I had was to increase the number of spell slots.

The equivalent of 4 short rests per day every day would make the Warlock too powerful.

Likewise increasing the spell slots would be too good. Though I could see giving the 3rd slot a level or two earlier. There is a lack of power gain until level 11.

The player is pretty disappointed in how the warlock is playing and is considering either multi-classing (something I'm not sure as DM I want) or dropping the character (again something I'd prefer not to happen).

It might just be that they don't like the style of the Warlock. Not all players want to play a Fighter or a Wizard either and that is okay.

The issue is that the party isn't getting lots of short rests.

How long has this been going on for?

The party should have an average of 2 short rests and 1 long rest per 6-8 encounters. Sometimes they should get less and sometimes they should get more to vary the challenges. If it has been going on for a long time then you may want to tweak something. Keep in mind that the adventure was written before the game was finalized.

So far in 5th edition the warlock is the first class design that's really made us stop and think that perhaps the designers got this class wrong.

My feeling is that it is group think.

Spells are a limited and valuable resource. They aren't meant to be able to be used every turn. They should be saved for just the right moment.

Eldritch Blast becomes quite good too after 5th level. It is not a waste of an action.

If the Warlock was able to cast encounter changing spells every turn they would outshine the rest of the characters.

Post the details of the character and the player's goals and maybe we can help to make them more effective.

 

[Coredump]

Warlocks are a different style of play, they can do less, but they tend to do it better and bigger.

IOW, at 5th level, the wizard is casting Firebolt for 11 damage, and only against 1 target.
The Warlock is casting EB for 19 damage, and can split between two different people if he wants. Thats **73%** more at will damage. Couple that with Hex and you are getting 'almost at will' 26 damage per turn for **136%** more damage.


At 5th level, the Wizard can cast Fireball only 2 times all day. The Warlock can cast it 2 times after every short rest!!

OTOH, at 5th level the wizard has a book with *at least* 14 spells, and can prepare about 9 of them, the warlock only knows/prepares 6 spells total.
That means the Warlock needs to be careful with his spell selection and use, but can pull out the 'big guns' a lot more often.

Warlock also gets some pretty useful invocations. Mage Armor is a waste of invocation. Agonizing blast is an autotake. Repelling blast is good, disguise self can be very useful. (Cultist disguise...), Beguiling influence, Book of secrets is really good, etc.


But there is a downside of getting the best cantrip option in the game, the most high level slots, and various at will invocations..... you get a very limited spell selection, and you rely on short rests. So sometimes situations will occur when a lack of short rests will have an impact. But like much else, its a trade off..... when you can get those rests, you will make everyone else feel worthless while you are using your best spell 6 times a day.

 

[Bera]

If you're PCs are too apprehensive about resting, you can use the DMG option to reduce rest times to only 5 or 10 minutes (even just short-rest times, leave long-rest times alone). You could even say you can only benefit from two short rests for every long rest if you're concerned about the math, and/or use a bit of narrative control to tell the players "Its obvious that you could get a short rest here."

As far as the invocations go, if the player is taking Armor of Shadows and Agonizing Blast over things like Misty Visions or Mask of Many Faces, you may suggest they swap one out for a night and see how they like it. Likewise for cantrips: you don't minor illusion or Mage Hand, and Prestidigitation (and some other gems from the Elemental Evil material) can be great outside of combat and you only need one or maybe two combat cantrips. When you have a small number of choices, its easy to focus on one aspect (e.g. combat) and not be able to do other things (exploration/interaction).

Another choice to get some more options is a level or two of multiclassing. Even just one level of Wizard or Cleric will give access to a whole lot more spell choices, and a couple slots which can help power Hex throughout the day.

 

[Dausuul]

He's taken the Mage armor one and a couple of utility invocations. We looked through the list last night discussing it after the game and there really doesn't seem to be many other choices for him.

Really? Because when I've looked through the warlock invocation list, I never even consider Armor of Shadows; there are so many other good options that I can't imagine wasting an invocation on +1 AC. Beast Speech, Book of Ancient Secrets, Devil's Sight*, Mask of Many Faces, Misty Visions, Repelling Blast... and that's just the stuff available from 1st level.

[size=-2]*Devil's Sight looks at first glance like nothing more than darkvision. But unlike darkvision, it lets you see in magical darkness. Suddenly any darkness effect becomes advantage for you and disadvantage for your enemies. Did I mention darkness is on the warlock spell list?[/size]

 

[Quartz]

If your Warlock is choosing to specialise in Eldritch Blast, then she shouldn't be surprised if that's all she can do. Consider invocations like Mask of Many Faces or Beguiling Influence or Book of Ancient Secrets. The first two work very well together. At higher levels Eldritch Sight comes into its own, as does Eyes of the Rune Keeper.

Edit: [MENTION=58197]Dausuul[/MENTION] pipped me to the post with the same thoughts. A case of Greatminditis.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

Thanks for the replies everyone.



He's taken the Mage armor one and a couple of utility invocations. We looked through the list last night discussing it after the game and there really doesn't seem to be many other choices for him.

I took the one tyhat lets you disguise self and silent image at will, which add a lot of options outside of combat. My DM gave me agonizing blast for free, and I granted it for free as well in the game I run. Given how much you rely on eldritch blast, you're kind of shooting yourself in the foot if you don't take it or one of the blade ones.

The warlock also plays very well with multiclassing.

 

[JackOfAllTirades]

The Blade Pact Warlock I'm playing has neither Agonizing Blast nor Armor of Shadows invocations. I've found it's quite possible to build an effective Warlock without them. Also, I hate being told "this option is mandatory" when building a character.

Edited to add: the above comment was not directed at ehren37's house rule granting agonizing blast for free. Rather, it was toward those who insist I should invest an invocation slot no matter what kind of warlock character I'm running, or as they say, I'm "doing it wrong."

It's worth noting, he's a Teifling, so once he got Darkness as a daily racial power, Devil's sight became an obvious pick. I also make extensive use of Mask of Many Faces - no combat utility there, but any discussion of the Warlock class should include their awesome role-playing opportunities.