Convincing a 4e group to try Pathfinder

freyar

Extradimensional Explorer
Well, I can't really talk about 4e, but, if you as DM would enjoy a 3.X or Pathfinder game, you should tell your group what you'd enjoy about it. It sounds like you find the variety enjoyable, so emphasize that Pathfinder, via 3.0 and 3.5, has access to almost a decade worth of options.

Also, they don't have to spend a dime to get the core rules if they don't want, as Paizo has them available right here.

You may also want to ask this question in the Pathfinder forum, since some of the most enthusiastic folks about PfRPG are mostly reading that forum.
 

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N0Man

First Post
My one problem with 4e is that it puts too much emphasis on your role, and less on your concept; in fact, the game basically punishes you if you choose to play what you want and not what the group needs. This alone makes me want to revisit 3.x via Pathfinder, since I would much rather be able to tell my players the theme of the campaign, and let them make whatever their heart desires that fits the theme, than have at least one person who ends up having to play a certain character class because otherwise the group will be without a tank/aoe/buffer/dps.

Play whatever you have fun with, and I'm not going to say that 4E is better or worse than another, however I think that this particular criticism is so off base that it really begs comment.

My personal experience is that 4E is the exact opposite in this regard. D&D has always had roles, they just weren't explicitly stated. In fact, D&D started with classes that only embodied these implicit roles (though with some evolution over time). Most classes that came after the originals were really just more flavors to do the same roles, or hybrids of these roles.

NEVER have I played a D&D game before 4E where people didn't feel like someone needed to play a cleric. Not just a role, but a specific class. Usually the last person to decide on their character, or who was indecisive got stuck with the Cleric. If you picked a healing class other than a Cleric, you usually got to hear complaints and grumblings every session about how they wish they had a Cleric. Now, there are many Leaders to choose from, with different flavors, all effective, and that are fun.

However, not even Leaders are absolutely required. I've seen games with no leaders, with no defenders, and with no controllers. They each had their own challenges, but none of them failed. In fact, unbalanced groups have worked better in 4E than in any previous D&D edition, in my experience.

This is further made true by the divisions of monsters into roles and categories in ways that it's easier for a DM to fit encounters to the party. The DMG gives advice on how to balance encounters when you are missing a role, and what types of monster roles to avoid per missing role. Because explicit monster roles didn't exist previously, this wasn't nearly as simple before 4E.

There may be many reasons to prefer a non-4E system, but this particular criticism just doesn't hold water.
 

I can't see why changing would hurt as most of the vocabulary is similar and the management of characters is most probably easier for them at low levels in 3.x/Pathfinder than 4E (assuming you start them at first level - which I would suggest). The greater variety of meaningful character options combined with the simplicity of low-level mechanics might help them. I think it would be an interesting experiment taking players who have only known 4E and trying them out on 3.x its Big Daddy.

Do you play with minis? Are you looking at any of the Pathfinder modules or Adventure Paths?

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise
 

Andalusian

First Post
My suggestion is to tell everyone you'd like to try out this new game system, and ask if anyone else would be interested in meeting up and giving it a go on a different day of the week from whenever you folks normally run your 4E sessions. Since you know the rules and they don't, you should offer to DM the first few sessions.

Mainly, I think you should avoid trying to step on the toes of the person who's DM'ing your 4E sessions, so don't say 'hey, next week let's play Pathfinder instead of 4E'. Instead, I'd try to find a way to have both games running concurrently, at least until it seems like everyone would rather play one instead of the other.
 

JoeGKushner

First Post
In terms of freedom of choice, what actual problems has that brought up in game play?

In terms of 'fixing', what do you honestly think Pathfinder fixed? Mages, indeed, spellcasters of all sorts, still seem vastly overpowered, especially at higher levels, insta kill still a problem, starting hit points still seem too low, full attact option still not... well, much changed, death at low negatives means high level play goes from perfectly fine to splattered against the wall, etc....

Mind you, if you didn't have a problem with any of that in 3e, it's not a problem in Pathfinder but then I'd have to ask, what were you problems in 3e that Pathfinder fixed.

3e's numerous options also came with a lot of substandard options and if you didn't know how to game the system at numerous points (and I'm not talking system mastery, I'm talking gaming the system), then you could be quite easily splattered. Concept vs game mechanics wound up with concept getting ass kicked many a time.
 

wow what a set of 20 words...some classes get alot more powerful, some lose power...guess what that does to balance...

I guess it isn't bad aslong as you play primary casters and not primary weapon classes...
Wrong.

Check out the PRD - from what I've read, they've meaningfully balanced the classes - casters not so weak at low levels, non-casters more powerful at high. The proof however will be in the playing.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise
 


Wrong.

Check out the PRD - from what I've read, they've meaningfully balanced the classes - casters not so weak at low levels, non-casters more powerful at high. The proof however will be in the playing.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

um, I have read the prd...and I do not see even close to an equal footing with a 12th level fighter or a 12th level wizard...

spells still go up way fasster then anything else, and fighters still do not have options to match.

had they gone more of a Bo9S route maybe...but as it stands now the fighter is no better at above 8th level in path finder then he is in 3.5 (Yes they increased him, but they increased the mage too...I have said it before and I will say it again..."Who sat there at a pf meeting and said "We need to give wizards MORE class features...you knw even though they are one of the top 3 classes"))


Edit: please I beg of you to prove me wrong...I would like nothing more then to come back here and find a fighter power/feat/option on par with a 6th level spell...
disintagrate
eneveration
feeblemind
limited wish (Not really limited except when compaired to it's big brother
 
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Stalker0

Legend
At the very least, would they be willing to try it for a session? Perhaps with pre-genned characters? With you as a DM (assuming you're better than the current one [which your post seems to indicate]), perhaps they'll have a better time.

I think this is the key right here. Don't throw a lot of investment in something they might not like. Try a one shot. Maybe it could be an opening to your campaign, or something completely different. The important thing is...the characters people play aren't necessarily the ones they will play in the campaign.

I say go for 3rd level (1st level in 3e will seem very mundane after playing 4th). Let them try it out. If they like it, then pursue the campaign. Heck, maybe some people will want to keep their characters for the campaign.
 

Please correct me if I'm misunderstanding you, but are you saying that Pathfinder actually gives the Druid more abilities than it had in 3.5E? :confused:
The Druid doesn't gain that much, I'm not too sure where Starbuck_II is coming from. Their wild shape has a different level curve (which cleans it up nicely) but I don't think this is wildly different from 3.x. YMMV.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise
 

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