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Core classes. How are they balanced?

Elethiomel

First Post
I'm familiar with generic classes.

We don't play with the spell compendium being canon necessarily, but we keep something many don't. All things from the Forgotten Realms books are canon. If we aren't playing a FR game, then just the spells, and most of the feats are canon, and the odd PrC.

That certainly changes things a lot from core; there are are a lot of rather powerful things in the FR books that makes the classes balance weirdly (well, more weirdly than they already are).

That being said, your game is not how DnD is designed to be run. It's designed to be a team game, which is why the class imbalance becomes more obvious when you run a game like you do. I would love to play in it, but I would be suggesting a system switch whenever I spoke to you away from the table. ;)
 

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Asen

First Post
It's not a problem of your games being more complicated, Sylrae. You're definitely adding playing styles that screw with game balance, and when you chuck the teamwork altogether, of course some chars are going to beat others. A 1st level fighter will always destroy a 1st level sorc, in my experience, for example.

That said, a cleric may be able to do some of what a wizard does and some of what a fighter does, but as all level, the cleric can't possibly keep up with the damage potential of the former and the feats and BAB of the latter. It sacrifices focus for versatility. Having played clerics and seen clerics played for years, I have come to believe that the game is balanced. When you radically alter the game and introduce Faerunian magic, that changes.

If you were to strip down to core, I think you'd find that balance. Consider what elements you're introducing into your game. I think it's your home brew that's the problem, and not 3.5.
 

Kaisoku

First Post
Given enough time, and possibly a bit of cash, the Wizard would be able to defeat pretty much any other party member.

Then again, if anyone gets the jump on him he's probably toast (unless he had a contingent backup for just such an eventuality).

As for actual hard coded "how are divine spells lesser than arcane spells"?

DMG 3.5, pg 35-36 "Damage Caps for Spells"

Clerics are a full step behind in assumed damage capability from their spells. They shouldn't even have a multi-target spell at 1st level according to the DMG.

These are the rules to adjudicate what to allow for creating new spells. If you have spells from sources that breaks this damage cap situation, or breaks the other rules listed before this section (Wizards should have the largest selection of boom spells, etc), then it's going against the core balance of the game.

I personally have never seen the spells from Magic of Faerun, and similar things. It's possible they break this (surprise, surprise), in which case the problem is the add-ons, not the core rules themselves.



Finally, the game was balanced with players fighting similar targets, not against each other. When playing against each other, it's going against the core intention of the game rules... balance wasn't created through a grand PVP experience. In fact, balance was specifically designed around fighting similar enemies in a vaccuum.

Even then, the game wasn't that balanced to begin with (Fighter v Wizard), but still... the intention of the game design is different from what you intend to do, so you'll have to expect very large sweeping changes if you intend to make everyone "equal".

I think you might be better served trying to set up a "Rock, Paper Scissors" situation, where every class/role has it's person he can kill easily, and person that easily kills him.
 

Runestar

First Post
I have been following this thread for quite a while now and I would like to share my own 2 cents, if you all don't mind.:p

Well, I know that clerics and druids have summoning abilities, but in general the Wizard/Sorcerer spell list has spells of much greater ability. Invisibility? Magic missile? Fire ball? Hard to go wrong with these, and hard to equal them with a cleric, unless you have some type of additional books that seek to make divine casters more powerful.

I would say that you can go very wrong with direct damage spells. Apart from a very narrow window (typically from lv5-8), they are for most part fairly lackluster compared to what your arcane spellcaster could be doing instead. At lower lvs (lv1-4), you lack the caster lv to power damage spells, so you are usually better off with spells whose effects are less dependent on caster lv, such as sleep, benign transposition, grease, colour spray, glitterdust, web and cloud of bewilderment. At the cost of a single spell slot, you can potentially shut down the entire battlefield or at least debuff and weaken the enemies sufficiently for the fighters to step in and finish the job. Much more efficient than hitting a single kobold warrior with magic missile.

Past that sweet spot, enemies' hp typically scale at a much faster rate than your direct damage die, so it is an increasingly uphill task to maintain your effectiveness unless you resort to save-or-die spells, but that too is also much harder to use successfully in 3.5 with the nerfing of spell power, unless you really go out of your way to lower the enemy's saves first (eg: limited wish). But at the end of the day, the amount of resources expended just to make this work may not be any less than just blasting it.

Likewise, enemies all continue to fight as well regardless of whether they are at full hp or at 1hp, so for most part, damaging them won't affect their offensive capabilities one bit. Which is why I feel that it is generally better to just disable them control spells like black tentacles, solid fog, stinking cloud, bands of steel, as well as metamagicked versions of lower lv spells such as sculpted glitterdust/stinking cloud. Summons are better at absorbing damage since you don't have to worry about healing their wounds, and they double as a free source of damage, flanker or aid-another ally.

By reducing their attacking capabilities, you are not only enabling your fighters to finish them off more easily, but also negating their capacity for dealing damage, which translates to an indirect form of healing since your fighters are taking less damage. This is why direct damage tends to be less efficient than battlefield control.:)

Conversely, divine spellcasters can make for excellent fighters. Clerics can wear heavy armour, use shields and assuming they took the war domain, wield a decent weapon, using buff spells to augment both their fighting capabilities and that of the party. Likewise, the druid can wildshape and use natural spell to cast spells while shapechanged, and past 8th lv, can remain in wildshape practically 24/7, effectively becoming the equivalent of a spellcasting fighter. Wild armour/shield and wildling clasps let you work around the drawback of your gear normally not carrying over in wildshape, or alternatively, have the wizard buff you with long-duration spells like mage armour.

Healing is for most part an inefficent option which should only be carried out in between combats, not during (unless circumstances are really dire), and even then, you can craft/purchase wands of vigor to supplement your healing, freeing up divine slots for more useful spells. Druids can summon in unicorns (acting as a decent support fighter during combat, and a passable healer after combat), and even rogues can UMD healing wands. Thus, it is generally better to focus on taking down your enemies ASAP before healing (because each round you take them down sooner is one less round they can attack, meaning they deal less damage, and so you need to heal less). Likewise, using healing potions during combat is about one of the dumbest moves one can possible make, so I wouldn't view that as a viable alternative either.:lol:

If I were a fighter in that party with that jerk of a cleric, I'd say fine and then let the next Ogre through to attack the back lines of the party. If they aren't going to fulfill their party role and be a team player, I see no reason why I should risk my neck for them. After all, that Ogre will be lots easier for ME to down after he's taken some damage, and the cleric will do SOME damage before he's dying, simply because the fighter's not allowing him to spend a few rounds buffing and the rogue's not serving as a scout, which is dangerous, don't you know...

Sadly, my experience is that the outcome tends to be the same regardless of whether the fighter is willing to assume the mantle of party tank. Why? Because unlike the 4e fighter, the 3e fighter utterly stinks at being a tank, because he has no means of instigating the enemy to want to attack him over another PC who would have fewer hp, be less heavily armoured and possess greater potential for mass destruction. There is absolutely nothing he can do to say, convince the dragon to attack him, not when the dragon can just fly overhead to assault the weaker wizard or rogue, and the fighter can do little but just continue attacking the dragon, all while helplessly watching it eviscerate the other PCs. Nor is he an effective battlefield controller, since popular tactics such as grapple or tripping have their own limitations, and monsters tend to be just as good at this, if not better, because of their size/str advantages.

In fact, I have found that a wizard can make for an even better tank than a fighter. My 5th lv focused specialist conjurer could bring in huge fiendish centipedes, which are able to grapple foes with a higher degree of success than any fighter ever can. This allows me to "tank" the selected foe by forcing it to remain where it is and deal with the centipede, even if it does not want to, either removing it from combat for that few rounds, or disabling it while the other PCs finish it off.

My impression of the 3.5 fighter is that its role of more akin to that of a 4e striker. He has the capacity to deal a lot of damage, nothing more. So he should typically hang back and wait for the spellcasters to lock down the entire battlefield (using fogs, walls, summons etc), before wading into combat and finishing off the weakened foes (which in turn helps the spellcasters conserve resources as they now have a ready source of direct damage - the fighter).

Likewise, I do not think it is fair to say that one class is any stronger than the other just because it would win in a PvP fight, since classes were conceptualized based on how much they could contribute in a typical 4-PC party, not how they fare in an arena matchup. The fighter, as with any melee PC, has his place. Unfortunately, it is not always a glorious one, since your role may well be synonymous with that of the druid's animal companion (considering that at lower lvs, a riding dog's stats are roughly equivalent to that of a fighter). ;)

What do you all say?
 

OneWinged4ngel

First Post
I don't really understand how anyone can talk seriously about them "trying to balance things with these arbitrary assumptions" and such when we're looking at a game that completely throws out the RNG by the end of mid-levels. I mean, really.

There are two conclusions to be had. Either A) They did not try to balance anything, purposely facilitating imbalance with some whacky Ivory Tower Game Design idea or just plain rushing through the design process, or B) They do not even have the most basic amateur understanding of the concept of game balance. Cuz honestly, the balance issues in 3rd edition are pretty obvious to a casual observer, let alone someone who has studied and understands game design.

Seriously, you have to be a pretty damn poor playtester to not notice that. If you actually still believe that they playtest half as much as is sometimes claimed (which, as we know from actual statements from the designers, simply isn't true. See, for reference, the story about why the Druid animal companion entry for the PHB and DMG in 3.0 was different. A direct result of nigh-zero playtesting).

So yeah. Either they weren't trying for balance, or they suck at their jobs. No real way around it.

Whatever the case, it ultimately doesn't matter. What really matters is how the rules actually work, and how the game actually plays, and the reality is that the game is quite lacking when it comes to the field of balance.
 
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Runestar

First Post
I think part of the problem is that the PCs were not really optimized themselves. The sample PCs used in playtesting were supposedly included in the "Enemies and Allies" splatbook, and I have heard that their stat blocks absolutely stank. I guessed a balor must have seemed like an extremely powerful foe when facing a multiclassed bard/fighter...:lol:
 

Derro

First Post
I think part of the problem is that the PCs were not really optimized themselves.

That's the heart of it. Optimization is not in the playtest equation. I said it earlier in this thread. Optimization comes after hours and hours of play and pouring over rule-books. Playtesting is usually done by a mass of people that all start at ground zero. So if you have 20 groups doing 50 hours of playtesting apiece the 1000 hours of playtesting is misleading. A lot of that play is parallel and the overall experimentation and optimization tends to peak in roughly the same area with each group.

Optimizing is the product of repeated play and the occasional eureka moment when an interesting combination is discovered. The balance of the game is in its most basic mode of playing, a typical or only slightly skewed party going through the full level progression facing foes of roughly equal challenge throughout.

Consider the cardinal rule of CR with classed characters. A standard character has a CR equal to their class level. This means that a character of equal CR should use up a quarter of the party's resources whatever their class.

Horse-puckey.

A 9th level wizard is going to do a lot more to a party of equal level than a 9th level rogue or even a 9th level cleric. Balance is not something that can be achieved with an equation. Challenges have to be constructed to challenge parties on a case for case basis. As far as the CR/EL guidelines are concerned they are only that, guidelines. It is up to GMs to make the final decisions about where challenges lay, not numbers on a table or at the end of a stat block.

I think that this dissatisfaction that the OP has with inter-class balance is a product of his particular game instead of a problem with the rules overall. Again, I'm not trying to be derogatory here but if PvP happens with such frequency that you've come to gauge the capabilities of PCs against each other as the measure of balance then that sounds like a dysfunctional game to me. D&D is not about man to man combat, particularly when the men are supposed to be on the same side.

My quickest fix for the OP is reducing Cleric and Druid casting progression to that of the Bard. It slows down their spell power considerably and since spells are the fly in the ointment for you it will most likely bring equity to your game as far as the PvP element is concerned. What that will do to standard play I can't say but it sounds to me like a lot of your play is pretty non-standard anyway.
 

Runestar

First Post
But the problem is that even in core, it should have quickly become obvious how spellcasters could dominate the game. I don't believe that no playtester thought of having his druid take natural spell, have the wizard specialize in conjuration, or how a cleric with divine power and quickened divine favour easily equalled the fighter in combat (and more). I-win spells like sleep, glitterdust, black tentacles, wall spells, acid fog etc are standard issue, and I don't even have to go out of my way with some ridiculous rules-lawyer'ish interpretation to abuse them, they are already very strong right out of the box. Polymorph's power was matched only by its confusing rules (and to this day, I don't think anyone really knows how it truly works). At higher lvs, forcecage and maze can easily shut down a fight even before it begins (both don't offer saves, and forcecage ignores sr). Let us not even bother discussing 9th lv spells.

Don't tell me that all the playtesters opted to run wizards as blasters and clerics as healbots without examining other alternative build archetypes?

Conversely, the only "boost" the fighter got was greater weapon focus/spec, which was really a trap to begin with, as all it did was to distract you from the real must-have feats like power attack, improved trip and combat reflexes, and did absolutely nothing to solve the fighter's real shortcomings (in that he already had no problems dealing damage, what he really needed were more options to make him more versatile in and out of combat, something the warblade accomplishes magnificently with his maneuvers which removes his reliance on the full-attack action and expanded skill list).

TWFing was generally inferior to 2-HFing unless you had a damage source that triggered off every hit, such as a rogue's sneak attack or ranger's FE damage boost. The barbarian was a 2-lv class. Bard was sub-par unless you had the ELH and could boost his diplomacy check to 150+. Rogue was perhaps the closest you came to a "balanced class", but was hampered by his sneak attack being very selective in what it could target. Paladin was hard to play because of his restrictive code.

While 3.5 did solve quite a few problems plaguing 3.0 (most notably sky-high DCs and haste), it did appear to open the floodgate for newer problems to rear their ugly heads as well. Seems like for each issue they resolve, 2 new ones pop up to take its place. I think that after a while, they gave up trying to fix it altogether. Hence 4e.;)
 

Wish

First Post
What's odd, reading this discussion, is that in my higher level campaigns (played two to 18-19 level and two to 15-16), it's been the melee types dominating in three out of four. The casters drop their efforts on supporting the melee types with buffs, debuffs, healing, positioning and crowd control while the melee types spit out huge damage numbers every round. It seems like it's just more efficient to use magic that way than trying to actually damage the enemies or get them to fail saves against incapacitating effects.

I do play in one group with an archer cleric, kineticist, and evoker where a lot of the damage comes from spellcasters, but in my experience that's the exception, not the rule.
 

Runestar

First Post
What's odd, reading this discussion, is that in my higher level campaigns (played two to 18-19 level and two to 15-16), it's been the melee types dominating in three out of four. The casters drop their efforts on supporting the melee types with buffs, debuffs, healing, positioning and crowd control while the melee types spit out huge damage numbers every round. It seems like it's just more efficient to use magic that way than trying to actually damage the enemies or get them to fail saves against incapacitating effects.

That is the same way spellcasters were run in my games as well, and arguably the most efficient manner in which spellcasters can be played. However, it has been debated if usefulness can be measured solely in terms of damage output or not, because it is clear that the fighters are able to sneak in so much damage only because the enemies have for most part been disabled by the spellcasters.

I have played a wizard which did not get to do any damage at all. He just hung back and divided the battlefield. We had 2 wizards in our party. The fighter was a chain-tripper build, and thus more focused on tripping enemies and stymiying their movement rather than dealing damage. By the time they were done, the battle was for most part a forgone conclusion, even though the enemies were largely still at full hp (or had taken negligible damage from acid fog, improved trip or black tentacles).

It reminded me a little of those crazy blue counter decks back when I used to play Magic: The Gathering. You would focus on locking down the opponent with tons of counterspells and board destruction, relying on a single hard-to-kill creature like a rainbow efreet or morphling for victory (since you still need to reduce your opponent to zero life).:lol:
 

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