Core requirements of a good party-based fantasy RPG

In the context of me longing to use the pandemic to write my 'perfect RPG,' some friends and I got talking about deep, base reasons why certain games we've played have satisfied or not satisfied us. We're fans of narrative and drama, but we enjoy game mechanics that let you actually play through combat, and have your decisions matter.

These are the six items we came up with.

1. Ludo-Narrative Consonance.
The effect of an action in the game mechanics and the incentives they provide should make narrative sense. Five-minute adventuring days made mechanical sense in D&D 3rd edition, but they made for bad stories. Magic item treadmills encourage you to throw away your family's ancestral blade when you find a random +1 weapon. Even hit points can cause mild dissonance if not implemented well, like if a monster's attack always 'impales' a character, yet the damage it causes can be 'healed' by an inspiring word.

2. A Clear Aesthetic.
We really appreciated Legend of the Five Rings for leaning heavily into the 'five elements,' which let you use the same skill in five different styles - sneaky, indomitable, reckless, mobile, or serene. It made playing the game feel different from your normal kitchen sink fantasy setting of D&D. Dark Sun, likewise, had rules of magic that set a strong mood, because most magic killed plant life, which made it both precious and terrifying. Gamma World 4e was intentionally bonkers and made chaos rewarding rather than annoying.

We generally like games that have a small suite of meaningfully distinct options, rather than myriad options that all blur together. In Pathfinder there are so many spells that can do anything, so if you see a wizard, you don't know what you're getting into. In Avatar: The Last Airbender, there are four elements, each of which has maybe 5 different tricks it can do, so each of those things feels cooler.

3. An Appreciation of Tabletop Pacing in Character Creation.
In 3e, a ranger who leveled up basically got to pick some skill points and every few levels could increase their bonus with a favored enemy and get a feat. The choices came too slowly. In PF2, when you gain a level you might get a feat that lets you avoid critical failures on Profession checks. The choices are too insignificant. And many games act like getting a +1 bonus to some stat is interesting; it isn't. Numbers untethered from narrative are meaningless. These things are fine in video games where leveling happens quickly, and in the span of 4 hours of gaming you can rack up a variety of small perks that amount to something meaningful. But if you've been playing for weeks before you level, what you get needs to be interesting.

As an example of what we want, we liked how in New World of Darkness or Warhammer 40K Rogue Trader you'd get XP after each session which could buy small increases in skills.

4. Balance of In-Game Choices and Pre-Game Choices.

You often have tons of build choices that let you become really good at one thing, and then when you actually play the game it becomes foolish to do anything but focus on your one trick. The rules have all manner of combat maneuvers - grabs and shoves and trips and disarms and dirty tricks - but the mechanics usually make it much better to always just hit for damage. We want more useful choices in combat.

As an example of what we like, 4e had interesting tactical powers where you'd pick between a suite of options based on the situation. And the video game Horizon: Zero Dawn gave you 7 or 8 different weapons that were useful against different sorts of enemies, but nearly every enemy type would switch through 2 or 3 different attack styles, which would adjust how useful the different weapons are.

If all you need to do to win a fight is get rid of your opponent's HP, then you direct all your choices toward maximizing HP damage. So a game should have a way to require more than just damage to win.

5. Action Should Keep Everyone Involved.
If someone's turn takes 5 minutes to resolve, everyone else checks out. We want action to either go through each turn quickly, or give players reasons to pay attention when it's not their turn, such as with reactions or with the ability to influence each other's turn.

For instance, in the new Legend of the Five Rings, your dice pool determines both success/failure and potential 'opportunities,' which you might spend to inflict negative status effects, or grant a bonus to an ally's check. It felt like it could have used a bit more time in the oven, but it kept people attentive.

And we're intrigued by how different initiative systems can keep people involved. AD&D 2e style initiative had everyone state their actions at once, and then you resolved them. Yes, the planning might slow down, but once you start resolving the turn there's a clear narrative that keeps everyone engaged.

6. Teamwork Without Dog Piling.
This sort of goes with the above point. For the sake of having dramatic confrontations, you want characters to be able to meaningfully work together - for the whole to be greater than the sum of the party's parts.

But on the flip side, in many games teamwork just amounts to a confluence of status effects, which completely negate the tension of a conflict. It's a tough game design challenge, one where tabletop RPGs don't have as many big-budget video game examples to model. If enemies are designed to be balanced one-on-one against a single PC, then a quick gang-up on one foe will take them out and tip the scales of the encounter. Worse, you might have something like a boss enemy getting tripped/blinded/immobilized/weakened all at once, so all of a sudden Darth Vader is on the ground crying for his momma.

5e doesn't have much teamwork, though it does pay dividends to have multiple spellcasters put 'concentration' spells on one PC. 4e had lots of teamwork but it took years for the designers to overcome the dogpile threat for solo foes. PF claimed to have 'teamwork feats,' but they were incredibly niche with a high opportunity cost of forcing everyone to devote several levels to making them useful.

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What sorts of root design elements do you most want in your games?
 

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What sorts of root design elements do you most want in your games?

I have a weekly fTf game, and the core of my group has been with me for 15+ years.

In General
I would say the answer for my players would be based on the their motivation of four basic principles: spite, greed, petty-mindedness, and irrational affections for inconsequential NPCs.

They like detailed combat systems which play quickly and offer opportunities for friendly fire, which translate into points of contention that will last through two or three following campaigns.

They appreciate mechanics which take into account the mental and emotional benefits derived from frequenting young ladies of negotiable affection in a setting devoid of STDs.

But most of all, they enjoy a sandbox setting in which they can follow an obvious plotline without the slightest trace of irony.

In Specific
1) The players write their own stories, and generally the only plot device they are interested in is 'we won, they died, we got X amount of loot, and Joe's PC shot me in the last firefight and I will not forget that for years to come.'

2) Detailed damage mechanics, a clear social order so they know who they can dump on with impunity, and a reliable exchange rate for precious metal dental work pretty much covers the Aesthetics.

3) They tend to be more focused on equipment than class abilities. I believe this to be based upon the fact that every class gets the same abilities, whereas titanium-cored AP rounds are not common.

4) They make their own choices, nerfing their own characters and piling on biases, enmities, and the like. For example, one PC in my current campaign will not do lethal damage to any female whose physical beauty is above a certain level. No matter what. Ever.

5) I generally struggle to get people to shut up for one freakin' second.

6) Teamwork is created by the GM by managing NPC tactics well, and not being afraid of PCs dying (and banning all raise dead abilities no matter what the setting). Raise the bar, and they will learn to work together or die.
 

I'll add two more:

Minimal flipping through rulebooks: If you can do something it should be either part of the basic rules or right there on your character sheet. This counts somewhere between double and ten times for NPCs because the DM needs so many of them.

This is why I'll never run anything 3.X or Pathfinder 1e based. If I need to stop to look up what a spell or a feat does rather than having it right there in the statblock I'd have to take my eye off the world, the action, and the players. I'll grumpily allow it for spells, but only under protest (and run few spellcaster NPCs for this reason). The same goes for a PC. And they should preferably not have to flip the page over on their character sheet - one page is good.

If it's not fast decisions should matter: The best example I can give here is between 3.5 and 5e combat. In both games combat is slow. But in 3.5 if I got a character among the archer line then the archers have to stop using Dex to make their attacks to hit and start using Str - a meaningful penalty. In 5e they just draw their shortsword and their attack and damage are almost unchanged. Your tactical decisions are a lot less meaningful so combat feels sloggy.
 

I'll add two more:

Minimal flipping through rulebooks: If you can do something it should be either part of the basic rules or right there on your character sheet. This counts somewhere between double and ten times for NPCs because the DM needs so many of them.

One thing that's really been on my mind lately: why don't RPGs take more cues from board games? In particular, I've been thinking about player boards as a graphical interface for information. In board games, they often tell you what actions you have available, exchange rates, what phase you're in, etc. Why not use something like that for action economy? Or modifier tracking? What if it had spots to insert spell cards for spells you currently have memorized?
 

One thing that's really been on my mind lately: why don't RPGs take more cues from board games? In particular, I've been thinking about player boards as a graphical interface for information. In board games, they often tell you what actions you have available, exchange rates, what phase you're in, etc. Why not use something like that for action economy? Or modifier tracking? What if it had spots to insert spell cards for spells you currently have memorized?

Because the ones that do tend to go fairly gonzo and be distracting. I'm a big fan of what Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 3e tried to be, but it didn't always get there. (Seriously, dice pools where for modifiers you get extra dice which can be good or bad and you count and cancel the successes* are a superb mechanic and the power cards are interesting). Apocalypse World has its move lists. Invisible Sun with its card lists is just overwhelming. But a lot of it is a matter of cost and of parts to lose.

* If this sounds like the FFG Star Wars, that's a successor system. I prefer the WFRP 3e dice thanks to the conservative and reckless stances.
 


aco175

Legend
I was reading your part about on one players turn the other players check out. That got me thinking about having an action you could use on other players turns like a card that does cool things. First thoughts were granting advantage or taking it away. Maybe cast a cantrip or use a skill, or grant +1 to a roll. I was thinking some minor things that would help the other PCs out.

The fighter wants to charge the BBEG- you place your card down that allows you to cast a cantrip at the mook blocking the fighter hoping to kill it allowing the fighter a clear path.

The thief wants to backstab the evil mage- throw your card down that lets him gain advantage on the attack.

It might be a bit like casting an instant in Magic, but will get the players to pay attention more and only cost a few minor boons. Then again, give some to the leaders of the monsters in a fight as well granting one of them a power. Not sure if it will slow combat down or really thought about it more than just now.
 

billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him)
I was reading your part about on one players turn the other players check out. That got me thinking about having an action you could use on other players turns like a card that does cool things. First thoughts were granting advantage or taking it away. Maybe cast a cantrip or use a skill, or grant +1 to a roll. I was thinking some minor things that would help the other PCs out.

The fighter wants to charge the BBEG- you place your card down that allows you to cast a cantrip at the mook blocking the fighter hoping to kill it allowing the fighter a clear path.

The thief wants to backstab the evil mage- throw your card down that lets him gain advantage on the attack.

It might be a bit like casting an instant in Magic, but will get the players to pay attention more and only cost a few minor boons. Then again, give some to the leaders of the monsters in a fight as well granting one of them a power. Not sure if it will slow combat down or really thought about it more than just now.

It will almost certainly slow combat down, at least from an administrative perspective, that's part of the trade-off of potentially involving the rest of the table. Giving more people input will increase the time.
But something like this could draw on multiple traditions - use of a reaction as in various editions of D&D plus teamwork options akin to PF1's teamwork feats. This could also help fulfill criteria #3 - giving the players more options for character development. Part of the problem with PF1's teamwork feats was the expense of multiple characters taking the feat and then concocting the conditions to use them in combat - giving out more chances to take them and use them unilaterally as reactions, even if for smaller benefit, reduces their cost and, hopefully, increases their use.
 

If the teamwork feats had been set up as, "You are good at training your team to use a tactic. If you have this feat, you and your allies can all do X," it would have been much less onerous.

If reactions are ultra fast to resolve, it helps. And if they're not once-per-day powers, that reduces waffling over when to 'best' use them.

An idea I have is for a game that has the PF2-style four-tier successes: critical success, success, failure, and mishap. You'd get two actions per turn, but can only make one attack, so your other action would do something to influence the scene. I was trying to come up with a suite of, like, six common Poises - actions where you say, "I'm ready to do X if Y happens."

Avert would say, "If an enemy attacks an ally, I'll move a short distance, and if I'm adjacent to the original target, the attack will target me instead."

Bind would say, "If someone within my reach makes an attack, I'll grab their weapon and downgrade that attack by one step."

Commit would say, "I'm drawing back for a big swing next turn, and I'll get to upgrade my attack if nobody manages to damage me before then."

Defend would say, "I'll make an opportunity attack if someone moves past me."

Evade would say, "If someone makes a ranged attack at me, I'll move a short distance, and if I get to cover, the attack will be downgraded one step."
 

aramis erak

Legend
additional Items I want at the root:
Clear niches, with optimal fill archetypes, but without must-have classes.
Consistent mechanics; I don't want to have to remember which direction and dice I need for a given roll from a variety of more than 2...
 

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