Core Rules Only

[Lanefan]

Without EXTENSIVELY homebrewing and/or disallowing wide swathes of the core rules, explain to me how a skillful DM can create a playable setting using only the core rules that is:

> a swashbuckling world of high-flying airships that sail over a world-sea infested with titanic sea serpents, where bold rogues with a variety of abilities battling it out with rapiers, pistols, muskets and the occasional experimental aeroplane.

One could make a case that such a setting is barely D+D any more, if at all. The core rules won't support it, in any edition, in any case.

> a gritty sword and sorcery world where humans are the only widespread sapient race, and all other intelligent creatures (mostly demons, snakemen and man-apes), to say nothing of all spellcasters and magical items, are tainted by the ineffable, mind-wrenching touch of the outer dark.

Very do-able. Humans being the only *widespread* sentient race does not mean they're the only one; the other core races can be rare, but findable (and thus playable). The magic taint is easy to apply in one or more of several different ways: magic is unstable thus any spell has a small failure or wild-surge chance; magic stored in items has a chance over time of becoming corrupted thus there is a far higher chance of finding cursed items than usual; the PC spellcasters have been blessed by Mystara such that only they are exempt from the dark touch (and, natch, the campaign goal is to remove said dark touch from *all* magic...), etc. etc. The last option there is probably the most rules-acceptable.

> a treetop-leaping, sword-flourishing mythic far east, where skilled warriors, sages and wizards are most often one and the same, wuxia flourishes are commonplace, dragons are benevolent spirits and the non-human races are a mix of animals that can take human form and assorted (sometimes) benificent spirit creatures.

Everything except the treetop-leaping mythic far east part can be done...just takes imagination.

Lanefan

 

[Rystil Arden]

So you'd be happy to make D'artagnan into a bizarre coglomerate that is bound to some divine order, follows a unusual fighting style no one else might use and belongs to a unseen race rather than make the small confession of wearing a mithral chain (which he won't even feel and he can keep unseen under his clothing) and some minor magical charms (which he doesn't wear out of some strange sense of style that is borne from a pure metagame consideration/preference).

Sorry, I just don't buy it.

And yet as MEM points out, it can easily fit perfectly with his flavour, and beyond AC, it mechanically synergises excellently with the Charismatic character type that he is meant to be on top of all that. The crunch is just there to help play new and exciting concepts. Any sort of fluff can be invented as needed, as iwatt showed with a few inventive examples of changing fluff earlier upthread. Without the crunch, though, and these can really even be minor tweaks made to compliment the new flavour, like the tinkering and homebrewing iwatt suggests, many concepts are likely to fall flat.

The Swashbuckler isn't the only one--something like an animistic Shaman who talks to the spirits of nature and has a spirit guide and goes into trances requires a bit of retooling to accomplish (if the GM just gives the player a spirit guide for free when playing a Druid, for instance, this is effectively still adding a class feature) or a Wizard who summons and makes pacts with demons for vile acts in exchange for long-term service as his main MO from the beginning, etc. I don't suggest that you need to add the kitchen sink of all modules to accomplish it though--just a little creativity and leeway from a strict core-only standpoint. If you can agree with that, then I think despite a bit of a disconnect on terminology, that we fundamentally do agree.

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

I'd play core, but with reservations. I've got all these books burning a hole in my shelf. Is the DM going to buy me a new shelf when they burn right through? Well, is he!?

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

The disappointing thing about this, though, is that your roleplaying didn't count for anything. All that mattered was the Diplomacy roll.

You may as well have said, "I'll try to be diplomatic with the dude." [roll]

Only you wouldn't have earned the circumstance bonuses, which IMC aren't awarded for describing how you're being diplomatic, but rather are awarded for providing a fun and immersive environment that enhances suspension of disbelief.

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

One could make a case that such a setting is barely D+D any more, if at all. The core rules won't support it, in any edition, in any case.

Yet Spelljammer was basically this, in 2e, with no rules changed and only a few added.

You're quite right, though, the core rules can't handle this setting in any edition. Exception: offhand, I don't recall, but I know airships were a part of the Known World, and may have had rules in the Rules Cyclopaedia. On the flip side, I also don't recall if Basic D&D had firearms rules of any sort, so you're probably right.

Which was, after all, my original point: core rules only DOES impact setting.

Very do-able. Humans being the only *widespread* sentient race does not mean they're the only one; the other core races can be rare, but findable (and thus playable). The magic taint is easy to apply in one or more of several different ways: magic is unstable thus any spell has a small failure or wild-surge chance; magic stored in items has a chance over time of becoming corrupted thus there is a far higher chance of finding cursed items than usual; the PC spellcasters have been blessed by Mystara such that only they are exempt from the dark touch (and, natch, the campaign goal is to remove said dark touch from *all* magic...), etc. etc. The last option there is probably the most rules-acceptable.

To paraphrase a meme usually directed at either sci-fi or anime: "You got your crappy epic fantasy all over my sword and sorcery!"

What you described is indeed rules-acceptable... and not my idea of sword and sorcery anymore.

Everything except the treetop-leaping mythic far east part can be done...just takes imagination.

So how do I structure it, using the D&D core rules, so that becoming a better fighter involves mastering spiritual and pseudo-magical disciplines, again? Where do I get the fox spirits? Where do the elves and dwarves and plethora of magic items and basically all of the core classes go?

Ironically, the treetop-leaping part is the only part that can easily be done: since all the characters would have to be something along the lines of gestalt wizard/monk/fighters (but alas, gestalt isn't core), they'll all have access to Fly by 5th level, and the campaign would have to start above that level to capture the feel, anyway. :\

 

[Drowbane]

I voted no.

I should have voted "maybe" though.

If I had a choice of gaming with an exceptional DM who insisted on Core Only and an average DM who allowed all WotC... I would take the exceptional game but pine for all the "kewl" stuff I couldn't do.

Now, if both DMs are on the same level... I would be in a rare mood indeed to even consider the Core Only game.

I like chocolate.

 

[xnrdcorex]

I'd play the Sailor Moon RPG if the gamemaster was of acceptable skill!

Of course, my definition of "acceptable" may be a little higher than most....

would you play the core rules only sailor moon RPG?

 

[Remathilis]

Ah swashbucklers; I've had this arguement about them so often I can't stomach it. I'm in the camp of "allow it" since with few exceptions I like most WotC base classes. I'd also love to play a swashbuckler from level one rather than tinker with "what will the DM give me for this trade*" or "Sorry, I can't tumble yet, I need to level up in rogue".

Same thing with the scout (ranger/rogue), duskblade (figther/sorcerer), or spellthief (rogue/sorcerer). Sometimes its cool to take what you like, chuck the rest, and play a nice, clean 20 level class the ecompasses perfectly your concept.

However, back to core. As I said, I'd play it (heck I practically do play it, I DM a more open game) but I do think the DM has an obligation to restrict his own dippings into other sourcebooks as well. Its ok to use a specific monster from other book (yuan-ti temple? use an aneathema) or a unique spell (what in the nine hells was that!) but too much (check out my uber warlock villian! He pwn's you all) and the players get resentful fast.

* And really, what is the swashbuckler class but an alternate-build fighter without armor profs, with a better skill list, and a bunch of pre-termined feats only he can take?

 

[AdmundfortGeographer]

On the flip side, I also don't recall if Basic D&D had firearms rules of any sort, so you're probably right.

Basic D&D did have adventures (in Blackmoor, the Known World's early history) where PCs could acquire laser pistols and laser rifles in DA2 Temple of the Frog.

In the setting of the Mystara, the Savage Coast region (to the west of the Known World) was given gunpowder weapons in the AD&D version of the setting. I seem to recall that in the Basic D&D handling of the region in the Dragon Magazine Princess Arc series there wasn't gunpowder. When it was expanded upon in Red Steel using the AD&D rules, they did put in gunpowder.

 

[Spatula]

II can name a few concepts that you simply can't duplicate with the core rules without at least the GM allowing for a few house-ruled changes. An easy one is Psion, though there are many more.

A psion is just a sorcerer with different mechanics. Cross out "Sorcerer" on your char sheet and replace it with "Mentalist" and presto, instant core-only psion.