Cosmic Deity power levels in 5E...

[Upper_Krust]

Hey all,

work continues on the book (albeit had a really slow week there due to real life stuff, mainly work). But I have been mulling over how beings of each divine status would convert to 5E.

If we parallel the current Deities officially detailed:

Demigods = CR 20-23
Lesser = CR 24-26
Inter = CR 27-29...or up to 30
Greater = CR 30-33...or up to 35

If we continue that scale then:

Elder One = CR 34-36
Old One = CR 37-39
First One = CR 40-43
Demiurge Stage I = CR 44-46
Demiurge Stage II = CR 47-49
Demiurge Stage III = CR 50-53

Time Lord = CR 54-56...?
You could maybe say each additional Universe adds another CR at this point so Domedon-Doxomedon would be CR 61

I'm just wondering whether those CRs seem a bit low for the types of beings we want to represent. Any thoughts? I know there are already unofficial monsters for 5E out there at CR 50 and they are not for Demiurge level beings.

I'm thinking Time Lord should probably convert to CR 100 and then below that will be some type of skewed inverted pyramid.

 

[Drazen]

Hey all,

work continues on the book (albeit had a really slow week there due to real life stuff, mainly work). But I have been mulling over how beings of each divine status would convert to 5E.

If we parallel the current Deities officially detailed:

Demigods = CR 20-23
Lesser = CR 24-26
Inter = CR 27-29...or up to 30
Greater = CR 30-33...or up to 35

If we continue that scale then:

Elder One = CR 34-36
Old One = CR 37-39
First One = CR 40-43
Demiurge Stage I = CR 44-46
Demiurge Stage II = CR 47-49
Demiurge Stage III = CR 50-53

Time Lord = CR 54-56...?
You could maybe say each additional Universe adds another CR at this point so Domedon-Doxomedon would be CR 61

I'm just wondering whether those CRs seem a bit low for the types of beings we want to represent. Any thoughts? I know there are already unofficial monsters for 5E out there at CR 50 and they are not for Demiurge level beings.

I'm thinking Time Lord should probably convert to CR 100 and then below that will be some type of skewed inverted pyramid.

Hello hello

I never like 5e, never really got into it. But even though i'm not sure how the thing works...
The challenge rating for those monsters do seem a little low. Hard to imagine a level 54-56 Time Lord who out powers all overdeities and has a +400 for each of its stats, with a whoppin 200 divine ranks and Alter Reality, with Trans something special attacks
It seems laughable a level 54 paladin would take one down, or even have a chance to....
I'm not sure what it should be, never played 5e. Only skimmed through rulebooks when the mood hit me.

 

[Alzrius]

Unfortunately, I'm not familiar enough with the 5E version of Challenge Ratings to offer any insight.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hello hello

I never like 5e, never really got into it. But even though i'm not sure how the thing works...
The challenge rating for those monsters do seem a little low. Hard to imagine a level 54-56 Time Lord who out powers all overdeities and has a +400 for each of its stats, with a whoppin 200 divine ranks and Alter Reality, with Trans something special attacks
It seems laughable a level 54 paladin would take one down, or even have a chance to....
I'm not sure what it should be, never played 5e. Only skimmed through rulebooks when the mood hit me.

Howdy Drazen mate,

5E is a bit tricky in that the numbers look even more arbitrary than previous editions.

Ability Scores are capped at 30; which is somewhat like 1st Edition.

PC level is capped at 20, so there won't be any Level 54 Paladins to take down a Time Lord.

The two schools of thought on determining Overdeity CRs (for 5E) would seem to be:
1. Base them on interactions with Level 20 PCs (since there are no official rules for anything higher other than epic boons). That seems to lead to the lower set of numbers.
2. Come up with some measurement that splices the divine strata down from CR 100 and then 'rustle up' some divine rules*.

*That path is fraught with peril, given my tardiness.

I was thinking of implementing Divine Levels as follows (and yes this deviates from the 3.5E Divinity Templates in Ascension; but 3.5E didn't have a Level Cap)
Hero-deity: Level 21-25
Quasi-deity: Level 26-30
Demi-deity: Level 31-35
Lesser Deity: Level 36-40
Intermediate Deity: Level 41-45
Greater Deity: Level 46-50

The thing to catch here is that Level is not CR. One Level is about 2/3rds of a CR. So Level 20 is CR 13 or 14.

So this parallels nicely with the official CRs for known deities and Demon Princes etc.

Continuing that and a Time Lord would be Level 81+ which is approx. CR 54. It sounds crazy low to anyone who played 3.5E, but again, the numbers are arbitrary.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Unfortunately, I'm not familiar enough with the 5E version of Challenge Ratings to offer any insight.

No worries Alzrius buddy,

I looked into getting a print version of Ascension. I am going to send the files off to Lulu and get a test version done. I'll let you know how that turns out.

 

[FieryDragonLord]

At least for me, it's not the exact numbers themselves which matter but what that would mean for the various tiers of divinity in relation to each other. So with a party of PCs at x level which relates to a certain level of divinity, you would have to consider what they would face as an average, difficult, or extreme threat in terms of CR. This sort of approach would require setting how character levels (or whatever means are used to advance characters beyond mortal status) relate to the various divine tiers first and then base CRs relative to that thematically.

 

[Upper_Krust]

At least for me, it's not the exact numbers themselves which matter but what that would mean for the various tiers of divinity in relation to each other. So with a party of PCs at x level which relates to a certain level of divinity, you would have to consider what they would face as an average, difficult, or extreme threat in terms of CR. This sort of approach would require setting how character levels (or whatever means are used to advance characters beyond mortal status) relate to the various divine tiers first and then base CRs relative to that thematically.

Hey FieryDragonLord mate!

well my standard approach would be (as per 3.5) two demigods = one lesser god, etc.

In 5E design its tricky to be exact but a CR of +5 is a typical doubling of XP, but two creatures are equivalent to x1.5 XP. Therefore a CR of +3.33 is probably the official doubling.

Therefore a difference of +10 CR would be 3 tiers of divinity.

CR 20 = Demigod, CR 23 = Lesser God, CR 26 = Intermediate God, CR 30 = Greater God
CR 33 = Elder One, CR 36 = Old One, CR 40 = First One
CR 43/46/50 for Demiurge Stages
CR 53 for Time Lords.

Alternatively you could start Demigods at CR 21 and simply add 1 to all the others.

Each Tier of divinity would be 5 'levels'.

Currently character levels do not increase above Level 20 and in the short term at least, I don't think they should. I think you could have quick and easy "Divine Levels" after Level 20 which would impart very simple mechanics* (part of a Divinity Template) and a single divine ability for each level.

*To keep the complexity to a minimum.

XP gained could still be spent on epic boons (albeit I would increase the amount required each time, or delegate only one boon per quest/adventure).

Assuming gods and monsters are designed properly (given sufficient HP and Damage etc.) to warrant their CRs (and only a few official monsters are) then a deadly threat for a Party of 4 Level 20 characters should be a single CR 26 monster.

However, there are many variables at play and we know a min/maxed party can defeat even CR 30 monsters (albeit those CR 30 monsters are probably under-powered for their CR).

Once we add epic boons into the mix we can assume even CR 30 monsters would be less than a deadly threat. Its a bit tricky to determine how many epic boons roughly equate to one extra level but its probably no more than 3. So a character with 9 epic boons would be effectively a Level 23 character.

I suspect that past maybe 15 boons and PCs begin to plateau in power. Whereas my simple ideas for Divinity would keep escalating.

 

[Rhuarc]

I'm definitely for an increase of 5 levels per higher divine tier. A mere difference of three levels seems not 'realistic' to me, when you compare the status and power an entire divine rank should bring with it.

I'm a fan of increasing levels past 20 (maybe just the old school way of thinking) and will do so in my own games, but I can see your approach as reasonable, UK. The closer you stick to the official rules, the easier it will be attracting people to buy your products. Simpler is better in this regard, especially when it will cut down on the developing process on your end.

 

[Upper_Krust]

I'm definitely for an increase of 5 levels per higher divine tier. A mere difference of three levels seems not 'realistic' to me, when you compare the status and power an entire divine rank should bring with it.

I'm a fan of increasing levels past 20 (maybe just the old school way of thinking) and will do so in my own games, but I can see your approach as reasonable, UK. The closer you stick to the official rules, the easier it will be attracting people to buy your products. Simpler is better in this regard, especially when it will cut down on the developing process on your end.

Hey Rhuarc matey,

Well 5 'Levels' is equal to +3.3 CR so that seems to fit well with the current depictions of deities (especially those in the CR 20-30 bracket).

Simply increasing Levels might work, but I think it causes more problems than it solves and you'll just end up with a homogeneity of characters with most of the same levels taken to get this or that advantage. I sort of want to avoid the pitfalls of 3.5E Epic (complexity) and while I know many here do enjoy the craziness I think you can have more or less the same gaming experience with far less moving parts.

In my next book I have a table that details 5E monster data up to CR 100, and IIRC everything basically caps at CR 50 aside from HP and Damage. I'm not sure yet if breaking the rules is a good idea. Do we cap AC at 30 or let it scale infinitely? 1st Edition had a similar soft cap at AC -10. Only one character in Deities & Demigods breaks that with Indra at -12. Cthulhu by comparison had an AC of 2. These things did not define those beings as much as the small handful of crazy, game bending powers the gods possessed.

 

[Alzrius]

Do we cap AC at 30 or let it scale infinitely? 1st Edition had a similar soft cap at AC -10. Only one character in Deities & Demigods breaks that with Indra at -12. Cthulhu by comparison had an AC of 2.

Fun fact: in AD&D 2nd Edition's DMGR4 Monster Mythology, Faluzure (or rather, his avatar) had an Armor Class of -16.