D&D 5E Counterspell - Do I know my foes' spell before I counter?

[Sadras]

My opinion on this post and others similar to it.
Seems to be a big lack of trust for the DM at some tables.

Sure, I can see why you say that.
Generally, I'm not on this side of the fence.
Guess I took exception in the instance of counterspell and when one had to roll for it.
In any event I prefer the passive arcana method so its a non-issue for me.

 

[Ristamar]

I don't buy into the ability to make an Arcana/Religion check (at a relatively large base 12 DC, no less) as a prerequisite to informed Counterspelling being defined as a "reward." It feels like the same sales pitch behind PSLs in professional sports where purchasing a license to a seat entitles the owner the right to buy season tickets.

 

[clearstream]

I don't buy into the ability to make an Arcana/Religion check (at a relatively large base 12 DC, no less) as a prerequisite to informed Counterspelling being defined as a "reward." It feels like the same sales pitch behind PSLs in professional sports where purchasing a license to a seat entitles the owner the right to buy season tickets.

By "reward" I mean that if a player chose those skills instead of say Stealth and Perception at character creation, they'll probably feel happy that they pay off by giving me mechanically relevant information. Think about the alternative: those skills don't do anything mechanically relevant?

It's kind of like buying a ticket, and being told that actually no one needs a ticket. And that guy - yes him - has invested in Stealth, Perception, Persuasion and Athletics and you know what? He can tell what spells are as they are being cast, just as quickly and well as you can.

 

[Sadras]

I don't buy into the ability to make an Arcana/Religion check (at a relatively large base 12 DC, no less) as a prerequisite to informed Counterspelling being defined as a "reward." It feels like the same sales pitch behind PSLs in professional sports where purchasing a license to a seat entitles the owner the right to buy season tickets.

Relatively Large Base? Currently everyone is agreeing with the passive Arcana/Religion check so a 12 DC is actually quite low if you think about it.
1st Lvl PC = 10 (passive) +2 (proficiency bonus) + ability, which is usually 2 or 3 = 14/15 (1st-2nd spells)
5th Lvl PC = 10 (passive) +3 (proficiency bonus) + ability, which is usually 2 or 3 = 15/16 (3rd-4th spells)
9th Lvl PC = 10 (passive) +4 (proficiency bonus) + ability, which is usually 3 or 4 = 17/18 (5th-6th spells)
13th Lvl PC = 10 (passive) +5 (proficiency bonus) + ability, which is usually 4 or 5 = 18/19 (6th-7th spells)

 

[Bradley Hindman]

I like this: the NPC should be played according to their predispositions. And those should be decided prior to the encounter. Are those the only types? I think there are at least three more

Indeed, there are more options; I was trying to keep it simple. I seriously considered adding your option (3) to my original list, but didn't want to talk too much about when I would consider making the change of type in the middle of play. I'm glad I waited, your description is more succinct than I would have written.

3) The NPC counterspells judiciously except where it believes the next cast will defeat them.

When they are on low hit points, they might switch to type 1). When they have just countered or resisted a spell that would have defeated them and might be being recast, they might remain type 2) except against the caster of that deadly spell. And we mustn't forget good ol' random

4) The NPC counterspells at random, or partly at random

and

5) The NPC prefers to Counterspell spells they don't recognise, because they find those most threatening!

and another that is predicated on the NPC having some information about the PCs in question. For example, perhaps the NPC has already met the PCs in combat and knows that the sorcerer is the one to worry about,

6) The NPC will counterspell situationally, such as counterspelling any dangerous spell that he/she does recognize and any spell that he/she doesn't recognize if it is being cast by a particular PC.

 

[Ristamar]

By "reward" I mean that if a player chose those skills instead of say Stealth and Perception at character creation, they'll probably feel happy that they pay off by giving me mechanically relevant information. Think about the alternative: those skills don't do anything mechanically relevant?

It's kind of like buying a ticket, and being told that actually no one needs a ticket. And that guy - yes him - has invested in Stealth, Perception, Persuasion and Athletics and you know what? He can tell what spells are as they are being cast, just as quickly and well as you can.

I don't agree with your analogy. If the ticket is identifying a spell through an ability check, and Counterspell is the event, who exactly is getting in for free? Noncasters who have no interest or ability to Counterspell? You'd be better off simply refunding the cost of the ticket (i.e. let the player choose a different skill) instead of charging a gratuitous fee.

I'd rather refine skill challenges and downtime mechanics with Arcana/Religion to open up more options instead of using them to gate the efficacy of current class abilities.

 

[Ristamar]

Relatively Large Base?

Relative to the other systems in the game which generally start at 8 or 10 before additional modifiers.

 

[Bradley Hindman]

I don't agree with your analogy. If the ticket is identifying a spell, and Counterspell is the event, who exactly is getting in for free?

I believe that buying a ticket is the analogy of choosing to invest in proficiency in arcana (or religion). Please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Ristamar]

I believe that buying a ticket is the analogy of choosing to invest in proficiency in arcana (or religion). Please correct me if I'm wrong.

I believe some have suggested Arcana/Religion are largely useless if not leveraged to identify a spell as it is cast. If you view that as the ultimate purpose of the skill, they're essentially one and the same.

 

[clearstream]

I believe some have suggested Arcana/Religion are largely useless if not leveraged to identify a spell as it is cast. If you view that as the ultimate purpose of the skill, they're essentially one and the same.

You can see that you're offering a strawman, right? I don't need to argue that identifying a spell is "the ultimate purpose" of either skill in order to argue that it is worth using them for this purpose. In play at the table, I see Stealth, Perception, Athletics, Persuasion checks being called for again and again. Why not give Arcana and Religion some extra mileage?