Craft vs Profession

[Ferrum]

The same character in my How much ore... thread is thinking about making a few bits of armor. I had taken ranks in Profession: Smith to give my character a little synergy boost to his stonecunning and understanding of metals and such, and now I'm thinking I might him to craft a few items using those skills.

After comparing Craft and Profession in the books, it seems to be oddly overlapping, weighted on the crafting side. Craft can pretty much do everything Profession can do, so long as there is a product to be made.

Check: You can practice your trade and make a decent living, earning about half your check result in gold pieces per week of dedicated work. You know how to use the tools of your trade, how to perform the craft’s daily tasks, how to supervise untrained helpers, and how to handle common problems. (Untrained laborers and assistants earn an average of 1 silver piece per day.)

This text is found verbatim in both skills, but craft goes on with creation specifics and DCs, where-as this is pretty much it for Profession.

So, would it be allowable for a profession check to be made instead of a craft checkwhen attempting to create an item? It seems this would have to be plausible... otherwise blacksmith npcs with ranks in profession and no ranks in craft would just stand in their shop, pumping bellows, supervising apprentices and making money without being able to actually produce anything.

If it's not plausible, and craft is mandatory for making an item, it seems that profession is by far a weaker skill, because it can only accomplish half of what craft can. The difference in ability checks (wis vs int) between the two skills further bothers my common sense. A genius fool can make a masterwork set of mithril full plate, but a wizened old smith with a successful business of his own is befuddled by the process of fabricating a horseshoe? bleh.

 

[BalazarIago]

The way I do it, is that one is a profession, the other is a trade.

Tradesmen make things, Professionals don't.

If a tradesman wants to run a business, then perhaps learning some merchant skills, I would allow Profession, Merchant.

Just because you can make items, doesn't mean you know how to wheel and deal to sell them. And visa versa.

I could also see Profession, Blacksmith, inwhich the character knows what is necessary to run and maintain a Blacksmith shop. That doesn't mean he knows how to be a Blacksmith.

Does that mean that every Blacksmith should have Profession and Craft?
No, but if he wants to have any business sense, want to haggle or want to be able to deal with suppliers, contracts, clients and staff, it would be recommended.

Just my thoughts

 

[darthkilmor]

IMHO Profession sucks as a skill. If your DM doesnt run a game with ALOT of downtime, its useless. and after a few levels, its doubly worthless. "Woohoo, i rolled a 27! Thats a week of work for...27...gold..pieces...Bah, Lets got kill some ogres or something." At best its great for some RP value, and maybe if you wanted to use the owning a shop rules in DMG2, but other than that, craft is far superior.

 

[Macbrea]

Professions do have a purpose in games that aren't wandering meandering type games. In our last campaign, we played in a city game. All adventures took place within the city or about it.

Marcus was a Rogue/Assassin with max ranks in Craft Alchemy and Profession Alchemist. This allowed him during the three years that the game took place in to maintain his alchemist shop in town. With two other NPC alchemists working underneith him. As a result over the weeks of play he ended up with far more weatlh then the non-skilled classes.

Players noticed I was keeping an odd set of book keeping. On the side, I maintained cost of livings for both my NPCs and my character, owned my own building and payed 15% tax rate of the city. But as a result I still ended up with quite a bit of money. But, this is only really possible for someone that is willing to put in the time and the game is going to take place in a single city.

 

[DamionW]

Also, there's just the fact that not every job in the world produces marketable goods. Sailors, Teamsters, Lumberjacks, Millers, etc don't necessarily make anything specific as far as equipment goes, but you might want your character to know something about those jobs. That's what Profession is for. The utility of this will vary from campaign to campaign, but the distinction between a crafting skill and a profession skill is necessary.

 

[Crothian]

I make the skills useful by thinking out of the box a little. If you are a trademan or proffesional you have the oppurtunity to join guilds and that can give good contacts and support. Also, many types of people like sailors don't really like to talk to non sailorts so people with 5 ranks in profession sailor have a much easier time taking to them and hanging out in sailor bars.

 

[Three_Haligonians]

I've always thought Profession is used for services, and Craft for goods. Ie. Profession: Lawyer, Craft: Painting. I don't have the books here to back me up, though, so this answer might be totally useless.

R from Three Haligonians

 

[irdeggman]

From the SRD:

CRAFT (INT)
Like Knowledge, Perform, and Profession, Craft is actually a number of separate skills. You could have several Craft skills, each with its own ranks, each purchased as a separate skill.
A Craft skill is specifically focused on creating something. If nothing is created by the endeavor, it probably falls under the heading of a Profession skill.


PROFESSION (WIS; TRAINED ONLY)
Like Craft, Knowledge, and Perform, Profession is actually a number of separate skills. You could have several Profession skills, each with its own ranks, each purchased as a separate skill. While a Craft skill represents ability in creating or making an item, a Profession skill represents an aptitude in a vocation requiring a broader range of less specific knowledge.

PHB pg 80 adds color text describing profession as service and craft as manufacturing industries.

 

[Nareau]

I have to questions how well this system works with professions that by their nature require both service and production--like a locksmith. Surely someone who can build a complex lock could also fix it, right?

I'm sorely tempted to roll the craft skills into profession, and determine which stat seems most appropriate depending on the trade. Profession: Innkeeper might be Cha or Int. Profession: Painter would probably be Wis. Profession: Blacksmith would be Int or possibly even Str. I think doing this would increase the utility of these skills (and how often they're used in the game), and make the system more elegant.

Spider

 

[Luthien Greyspear]

I have to questions how well this system works with professions that by their nature require both service and production--like a locksmith. Surely someone who can build a complex lock could also fix it, right?

I'm sorely tempted to roll the craft skills into profession, and determine which stat seems most appropriate depending on the trade. Profession: Innkeeper might be Cha or Int. Profession: Painter would probably be Wis. Profession: Blacksmith would be Int or possibly even Str. I think doing this would increase the utility of these skills (and how often they're used in the game), and make the system more elegant.

Spider

Making and repairing a lock does NOT require any skills other than the technical know-how provided by the Craft skill. Locksmiths only need the Craft skill to make their wares; they may also know Disable Device for new mechanisms they've never encountered, but generally they only need to know Craft (locks).

The Profession (salesman) skill would come into play if they wanted to SELL the locks they make. It would give them the knowledge to set fair market prices, to haggle, and to maintain an accurate shop inventory and sales ledger. I work in sales (cameras). I know a lot about cameras because of my job, because I need to know how to explain how they work to a customer so that they will want to buy them. I do NOT know how to make or repair a camera (particularly not a digital camera) because I've never taken the time to learn that complicated Craft skill.

While it is true that most medieval craftsmen were also the salesmen for their wares, that was out of necessity. Most did not become wealthy or prosperous; they were just getting by the best they knew how. They were good craftsmen, but not good businessmen. It was not until the advent of a politically strong merchant class that there became a sharp division between the manufacturing and service industries. Before that, every Commoner and Expert had to invest points in both Craft AND Profession skills, just to keep their heads above water.

That's another reason why most common people didn't know anything beyond what they had to for survival. They couldn't afford the skill points.

Edit: There's also one key point that makes the two skills vastly different: GP costs. Craft skills require raw materials, Profession skills do not. Can you make a sword without raw materials? No. Therefore it falls under the very specific rules for Crafting. Can you defend a client from a robbery or murder charge without raw materials? Yes. All you need are the people involved and the time to argue in court. Therefore it falls under the Profession rules.

Hope this clears up the necessity for the two specific skill groupings (even though they seem to work the same).