D&D 5E Crawford on Stealth

[Flamestrike]

Im not down with passive perception being the floor.

Id be OK with it if passive perception was 5 + Perception (effectively disadvantage due to not actively looking for anythhing and the natural predisposition of people to walk around (as we used to call it in the army) 'thumb in bum, and mind in neutral'

Youre not scanning the areak 24/7 when wandering about. Most of the time youre daydreaming or lost in thought.

 

[jgsugden]

Passive acrobatics - Can you navigate a somewhat treacherous and lengthy climb without incident?
Passive animal handling - Do you have the skill necessary to manage animals without incident?
Passive arcana - When you overhear something magical, do you recognize it?
Passive athletics - Do you have the physical capability to perform a physical task repeatedly without incident?

The only skills I have trouble seeing how to use passively: Deception, Intimidation, Performance, Sleight of Hand and Stealth. All of these seem to require an active intent to act in order to utilize.

 

[iserith]

Im not down with passive perception being the floor.

Id be OK with it if passive perception was 5 + Perception (effectively disadvantage due to not actively looking for anythhing and the natural predisposition of people to walk around (as we used to call it in the army) 'thumb in bum, and mind in neutral'

Youre not scanning the areak 24/7 when wandering about. Most of the time youre daydreaming or lost in thought.

I think if you take that comment in the context of combat, it all makes perfect sense: The monster's stealth goes against the PC's passive Perception under the assumption the PC is alert to danger. If that passive score is insufficient to notice the monster, the PC has an option of taking the Search action and trying for a better result. Thus, the passive score really is the floor.

I'm not certain Crawford meant to refer to it being the floor for exploration as well. I have to listen to it again to be sure. It was a little muddled in this regard in my view.

 

[Caliban]

Im not down with passive perception being the floor.

Id be OK with it if passive perception was 5 + Perception (effectively disadvantage due to not actively looking for anythhing and the natural predisposition of people to walk around (as we used to call it in the army) 'thumb in bum, and mind in neutral'

Youre not scanning the areak 24/7 when wandering about. Most of the time youre daydreaming or lost in thought.

If you think they are in a situation where they wouldn't be looking out for danger or traps (tavern, brothel, etc), impose a situational -5 disadvantage penalty. But if they are in enemy territory (dungeon, stronghold, or a section of wilderness known to be dangerous), I think it makes sense for everyone to be at least minimally aware at all times.

("Sorry Thorgud, visiting a brothel doesn't count as a "high alert" situation." "But Thorgud has a fear of women, he'd always be watching for betrayal!" "You didn't bring it up before she pulled the knife, so no.")

 

[iserith]

If you think they are in a situation where they wouldn't be looking out for danger or traps (tavern, brothel, etc), impose a situational -5 disadvantage penalty. But if they are in enemy territory (dungeon, stronghold, or a section of wilderness known to be dangerous), I think it makes sense for everyone to be at least minimally aware at all times.

("Sorry Thorgud, visiting a brothel doesn't count as a "high alert" situation." "But Thorgud has a fear of women, he'd always be watching for betrayal!" "You didn't bring it up before she pulled the knife, so no.")

Agreed. Engaging in certain tasks (foraging, tracking, navigating, drawing a map, and anything substantially similar) do not allow the PC to be alert to hidden dangers (unless the PC is a ranger in favored terrain). This is covered in the Adventuring chapter. And in the podcast, they say many times that the DM has to determine whether anyone is capable of noticing something first, based on the context, before applying rules.

 

[flametitan]

Well, according to the Observant feat, passive Investigate is also a thing. I've also seen a case made for passive Insight. Basically, the skills that let you sense something. But it's not actually discussed in the rules, other than Passive Perception.

But I agree that most skills probably aren't intended to be used passively. (Passive Stealth? Are you are always making a half-assed attempt to hide?)

Personally, I like the idea of Passive Perception being the minimum perception. If I think something would be harder to spot, I can impose a -5 due to disadvantage, or set the DC higher. But it allows me to describe the environment and what they see (or not mention things they don't see) without interrupting the narrative to have everyone roll perception checks.

And remember that several of the items that boost your passive perception are situational - they only do it for a single sense or situation. So if you don't think that sense or situation applies, they don't get the bonus.

I can see a case for passive Athletics, at any rate. Climbing a large enough cliff with a Climber's kit to mitigate fall damage is going to run you into a lot of climb checks (As any single portion of cliff is going to have to be climbed three separate times in order to move your anchor). As such, it might be more practical to use Passive Athletics instead as a quick measure of how well they did the climb.

 

[Caliban]

Passive acrobatics - Can you navigate a somewhat treacherous and lengthy climb without incident?
Passive animal handling - Do you have the skill necessary to manage animals without incident?
Passive arcana - When you overhear something magical, do you recognize it?
Passive athletics - Do you have the physical capability to perform a physical task repeatedly without incident?

The only skills I have trouble seeing how to use passively: Deception, Intimidation, Performance, Sleight of Hand and Stealth. All of these seem to require an active intent to act in order to utilize.

That's not really passive, that's the equivalent of "taking 10" from 3rd edition. And sure, if the DM wants to allow it in specific situations, that makes total sense.

I meant they aren't passive in an "always on" sense, the way it is for Passive Perception and Investigate (and possibly Insight). If you try to Grapple or Shove someone, you don't have a minimum of 10+Athletics on the check because Passive Athletics isn't really a thing.

 

[Arial Black]

Im not down with passive perception being the floor.

Id be OK with it if passive perception was 5 + Perception (effectively disadvantage due to not actively looking for anythhing and the natural predisposition of people to walk around (as we used to call it in the army) 'thumb in bum, and mind in neutral'

Youre not scanning the areak 24/7 when wandering about. Most of the time youre daydreaming or lost in thought.

JC's explanation of why passive Perception is the floor makes total sense.

If the DC to notice something is equal to or less than your passive Perception then you have already noticed it! The only time you need to roll is if the DC is higher than your passive Perception, because if it weren't then you would have already noticed it!

The passive Perception score represents that our senses are constantly taking in information. If you want to represent 'daydreaming' then that is mentioned by JC in the podcast as a decision for the DM where he can allow an auto-success on a Stealth attempt, or he can impose disadvantage on the 'thumb in bum' guy. That's not the default though.

The podcast neatly resolves the issue with the Observant feat. The PC has no need to say, "Oh, I'm not deliberately looking, I'm just casually glancing around", believing that his Passive score is a better bet than his active roll. Now, he automatically notices things that his (high) passive Perception lets him, and he can still roll to have a (small) chance of rolling even higher. The active roll doesn't take away the result that your passive score already gave you!

 

[jgsugden]

T...I meant they aren't passive in an "always on" sense, the way it is for Passive Perception and Investigate (and possibly Insight)...

In the examples I gave, you're constantly making use of the skill over a prolonged time. It isn't "always on", but it is "on for a prolonged period."

 

[Flamestrike]

JC's explanation of why passive Perception is the floor makes total sense.

If the DC to notice something is equal to or less than your passive Perception then you have already noticed it! The only time you need to roll is if the DC is higher than your passive Perception, because if it weren't then you would have already noticed it!

The passive Perception score represents that our senses are constantly taking in information. If you want to represent 'daydreaming' then that is mentioned by JC in the podcast as a decision for the DM where he can allow an auto-success on a Stealth attempt, or he can impose disadvantage on the 'thumb in bum' guy. That's not the default though.

The podcast neatly resolves the issue with the Observant feat. The PC has no need to say, "Oh, I'm not deliberately looking, I'm just casually glancing around", believing that his Passive score is a better bet than his active roll. Now, he automatically notices things that his (high) passive Perception lets him, and he can still roll to have a (small) chance of rolling even higher. The active roll doesn't take away the result that your passive score already gave you!

Id be much more comfortable if passive was (5+perception). It encourages players to investigate things a bit more.