Crazy Multiclassing Idea

[Viktyr Gehrig]

Also, I'm a bit fuzzy on the Gestalt rules - can someone point me to the source?

Unearthed Arcana.

Essentially, under the Gestalt rules, characters choose two classes every class level and combine them-- gaining the better of any numerical values and all of the class features of both. Normally, these rules apply to all characters in a campaign, and the characters take a Gestalt combination every level.

Characters can not combine two Prestige Classes at any level.

Prestige classes wouldn't be hard to deal with -- you have them stack onto whatever main class they come from. A 7th level cleric going into Radiant Servant of Total Munchkinizing class would do so under the RAW, so it would cost 7,000 xp for that level. If she then picked up a level of fighter, that would cost her only 1,000 xp.

I'd take advantage of the Prestige Class limitation-- Prestige Classes are always taken as advancement in your highest class. This upholds any implied level prerequisites and avoids the curious situation of Gestalting a Prestige Class into your first class level. It also prevents characters from acquiring one or two levels in tons of different Prestige Classes, or from characters ever having a PrC/PrC Gestalt.

 

[genshou]

I might use it myself, but I'm already using the Gestalt rules in my campaign.

Same here. Well, there's always next campaign, eh Korimyr?

 

[The Thayan Menace]

Words From a Master ....

"Gestalt classes are a hell of a drug ...."​

 

[Li Shenron]

I'm not sure if I understand correctly:

Let me get this right. Your 7/7 fighter/wizard would be:
would be 14th level with skill points.
would be 14th level with feats.
would be 14th level with ability boosts (every 4th level).
would be 7th level with BAB.
would be 7th level with saves.
would be 7th level with hit dice (and hit points).
would be 7th level with spells.
would be 7th level with maximum skill ranks (10).
would be 7th level with class abilities.

I though it would be still 7th level with feats and ability boosts, and with skill max ranks (but 14th with skill points.

 

[orangefruitbat]

The issue was that the character had 14 total class levels, and thus would have qualified for 3 attribute raises and 5 feats by level. Max skill ranks would have been 10 (level 7+3).

In followup posts, it was suggested to provide an "effective character level" based on the total amount of XP. Thus our 7/7 character would be considered level 10 for the purpose of feats gained and ability boosts, or for any other instance where the character's total level needed determination. So, if this were an NPC, he would be CR 10 (and not 7 or 14). Max skill ranks remain at 10.

I'm not sure if I understand correctly:



I though it would be still 7th level with feats and ability boosts, and with skill max ranks (but 14th with skill points.

 

[Sadrik]

The thing I like about this is that it is self balancing. You dont want to spread yourself too thin because the upper levels are where you get more powerful and if you waste all of your xp on gaining a bunch of low level classes you wont get very high level. Definatly gives advantage to the single class character but does not overtly hurt the dabbler.

Something that needs to be added though is how should the favored class rules be implimented in this?

 

[Spatzimaus]

I don't have my books in front of me, but this still looks horribly, horribly unbalanced unless you REALLY limit multiclassing. Compare two characters:
Character 1: 15th level Sorcerer (105k XP?)
Character 2: Sor 14/Ftr 2/Rog 2/Bbn 2/Clr 1/Dru 1/Brd 1/Wiz 1 (104k XP)
So, character 2 requires slightly less XP. In exchange for a single level of spellcasting, 2+INT skill points, and a d4 hit die, he gains 21 HP, 3 feats (two fighter feats and Scribe Scroll), Sneak Attack 1d6, Evasion, Rage, Fast Movement, Uncanny Dodge, a domain ability, an animal companion and a familiar. Oh, and 42+(10xINT) more skill points, which is probably more than he had to begin with, with a MUCH better list of skills to choose from.

It's actually not even a question of that kind of rampant multiclassing; it just illustrates the point. With this change, there's almost no reason for a high-level spellcaster not to take a single level of Rogue (for skill points), Barbarian (for HP), or Fighter (for HP and a Feat). Get a few HPs, some weapon skills, and maybe some armor profs you won't use. Sure, you'd be better off taking all three, but let's assume the worst case and pretend you limited it so harshly that no extra multiclassing would be allowed; it'd STILL be too strong. It might be okay for the 5/5 or 7/7 you're talking about, but that wouldn't make the 15/1 any less unbalanced. Any high-level caster who didn't take a side level would be far weaker than one who did.

So, you'd have to limit it in a way that only penalized the lopsided multiclassing. For instance, you could add two rules:
1> You can only do this if your highest class is your racial Favored Class.
2> And, you can't multiclass this way if the resulting levels would result in an XP penalty, assessed BEFORE taking into account racial favored classes.
So, the 7/7 is fine, but 8/6 or 10/1 isn't, regardless of race.

Personally, I'd say drop the whole idea and stick with Prestige Classes like the Eldritch Knight or Mystic Theurge if you want to mix caster levels with something else. They're much easier to balance.

 

[Pyrex]

One approach I used to curb this problem in another thread about a similar multiclassing concept was that XP wise each additional class incurs an additional +1 LA penalty on the XP chart.

i.e.
Initial class L1=0xp, L2=1000xp, L2=3000xp, etc
Second class (first multiclass) L1=1000xp, L2=3000xp, etc
Third class (second multiclass) L1=3000xp, L2=6000xp, etc
And so on.

Which tied into the bottom-up Gestalt variant Korimyr described in post 5.

 

[solkan_uk]

Huh?
I thought that the: Character 2: Sor 14/Ftr 2/Rog 2/Bbn 2/Clr 1/Dru 1/Brd 1/Wiz 1 (104k XP) would get the barbarian HD (but only upped from sorcerer, so assuming maxed would be 24 (12x2) - 8 (4*2), for 16 HP (12 if you count the extra level of sorcerer the single classed would have.
The skill points he'll get for all classes (2+8+4+2+4+6+2 = 28+7xint) skill points - I wouldn't give x4 at first level for additional classes in this variant.
Yes he'd get all spells and class abilities, but to be honest, 1st level spells, a combat feat, etc aren't that good by 5th level, The Rage would be good but for a mostly sorcerer character?

I dont even see this as a huge problem personally.

EDIT: Con bonus is ignored in HD, as it will be the same across all classes.

The only problem left to figure out is what to do with Stat bumps and feats, I don't like the idea of tracking level and effective level to that degree and don't like the idea of making it quicker boosts for this purpose. Technically they are based off HD not level, so could be a bit of an incentive against multiclass - this is probably the solution I prefer at this time.

 

[ARandomGod]

It sounds horrid at first reading.

It sounds interesting but horribly unbalanced at second reading.

After reading the comments, and doing a third reading, it looks intriguing and quite possibly good.

This is pretty much exactly 2nd Ed multiclassing, with the caveat that you don't *have* to do everything at once, and you're not limited in type/amount of multiclassing.