Creating a Character VS Discovering a Character

[Water Bob]

Page 9 of the PHB at the top under Character Abilities.

Thanks.

Reading it, it says "usually essential." That reads to me as more as a strong suggestion rather than a flat out iron clad rule. I would expect to see something like, "If a character doesn't have at least two attributes that are 15 or higher, then allow the player to re-roll his character's attributes."

Maybe there's something in the DMG to that effect?

 

[Lord Mhoram]

I'm of the build character not roll character approach. My favorite chargen systems have been HERO and GURPS. no dice rolled at all, and complete control. I tend to come to a game a GM is pitching the group a basic idea a month or more to play, and fine tune him during that time. Once play starts I start to really discover the characters personality and reactions. Our group's campaign run long - 5 years to a decade or more. with that much time expected in character, having a character concept that is exactly what you want.

 

[Maxperson]

Thanks.

Reading it, it says "usually essential." That reads to me as more as a strong suggestion rather than a flat out iron clad rule. I would expect to see something like, "If a character doesn't have at least two attributes that are 15 or higher, then allow the player to re-roll his character's attributes."

Maybe there's something in the DMG to that effect?

I did say "usually essential" in my prior quote.

You aren't going to find a hard rule stating that the DM will allow re-rolls if there aren't at least two 15's or higher. Many "rules" in 1e were just strong suggestions. However, "usually" is synonymous with "expected to be" and if something is "essential", it's critical to have it. If you are missing an essential part, your mechanical device won't work. The reasonable DM is going to read that and go with that strongly worded suggestion unless he has some atypical campaign going on where it's not essential to have at least two 15's or higher.

 

[pemerton]

[MENTION=92305]Water Bob[/MENTION]

Page 11 of the AD&D DMG says this:

As AD&D is an ongoing game of fantasy adventuring, it is important to allow participants to generate a viable character of the race and profession which he or she desires. While it is possible to generate some fairly playable characters by rolling 3d6, there is often an extended period of attempts at finding a suitable one due to quirks of the dice. Furthermore, these rather marginal characters tend to have short life expectancy - which tends to discourage new players, as does having to make do with some character of a race and/or class which he or she really can't or won't identify with. Character generation, then, is a serious matter, and it is recommended that the following systems be used.​

The book then goes on to list four possible systems: 4d6, drop lowest, six times, arrange as desired; 3d6, twelve times, keep six best, arrange as desired; roll ability scores in order, but 3d6 six times for each one, keeping the highest roll for each score; roll ability scores in order, using 3d6, twelve times and keep the preferred set.

There is no discussion of re-rolling if there are not at least two 15s. The comment in the PHB (p 9) that "it is usually essential to the character's survival to be exceptional (with a rating of 15 or above) in no fewer than two ability characteristics" is followed immediately by this:

Each ability score is determined by random number generation. The referee has several methods of how this random number generation should be accomplished suggested to him or her in the DUNGEON MASTERS GUIDE. The Dungeon Master will inform you as to which method you may use to determine your character's abilities.​

Given that none of those methods, as presented in the DMG, allows for rerolls if there are not at least two 15s, I would be inclined to take the remark in the PHB as a descriptive/predictive rather than normative one.

Another relevant consideration in generating ability scores in AD&D is that an ability score of less than 6 confines the character to a particular class (STR - magic-user; INT - fighter; WIS - thief; DEX - cleric; CON - illusionist; CHA - assassin). This means it is possible to generate ability scores that preclude taking up any class, either because there are two scores below 6, or because there is a single score below 6 but the character doesn't otherwise qualify for the class in question (eg a character who has only a 5 in STR and only 8 in INT does not qualify to be a magic-user, but may not be of any other class). In such circumstances is a player expected to re-roll? Or raise a score to the minimum that will allow taking on a character class? The rules don't help answer these questions.

 

[Maxperson]

@Water Bob

Page 11 of the AD&D DMG says this:

As AD&D is an ongoing game of fantasy adventuring, it is important to allow participants to generate a viable character of the race and profession which he or she desires. While it is possible to generate some fairly playable characters by rolling 3d6, there is often an extended period of attempts at finding a suitable one due to quirks of the dice. Furthermore, these rather marginal characters tend to have short life expectancy - which tends to discourage new players, as does having to make do with some character of a race and/or class which he or she really can't or won't identify with. Character generation, then, is a serious matter, and it is recommended that the following systems be used.​

The book then goes on to list four possible systems: 4d6, drop lowest, six times, arrange as desired; 3d6, twelve times, keep six best, arrange as desired; roll ability scores in order, but 3d6 six times for each one, keeping the highest roll for each score; roll ability scores in order, using 3d6, twelve times and keep the preferred set.

There is no discussion of re-rolling if there are not at least two 15s. The comment in the PHB (p 9) that "it is usually essential to the character's survival to be exceptional (with a rating of 15 or above) in no fewer than two ability characteristics" is followed immediately by this:

Each ability score is determined by random number generation. The referee has several methods of how this random number generation should be accomplished suggested to him or her in the DUNGEON MASTERS GUIDE. The Dungeon Master will inform you as to which method you may use to determine your character's abilities.​

Given that none of those methods, as presented in the DMG, allows for rerolls if there are not at least two 15s, I would be inclined to take the remark in the PHB as a descriptive/predictive rather than normative one.

Another relevant consideration in generating ability scores in AD&D is that an ability score of less than 6 confines the character to a particular class (STR - magic-user; INT - fighter; WIS - thief; DEX - cleric; CON - illusionist; CHA - assassin). This means it is possible to generate ability scores that preclude taking up any class, either because there are two scores below 6, or because there is a single score below 6 but the character doesn't otherwise qualify for the class in question (eg a character who has only a 5 in STR and only 8 in INT does not qualify to be a magic-user, but may not be of any other class). In such circumstances is a player expected to re-roll? Or raise a score to the minimum that will allow taking on a character class? The rules don't help answer these questions.

Except that 4d6 drop the lowest doesn't even average out at "at least two 15's or above", the two highest scores on average are 16 and 14. It doesn't make sense to say that it's "usually(expected to be) essential(critical)" to have two 15's or higher, and then set the game up so that it doesn't achieve that. 3d6 is even worse.

Now, perhaps Gygax was just horrible at math, but the fact that he gives multiple rolling options to try and get people to multiple 15+s for stats indicates that he expects the players to have PCs that have a shot at survival.

I don't know whether this is a true quote or not, but down at the bottom of the page at this site it shows Gary as saying here on ENWorld...

http://grognardia.blogspot.com/2011/03/thats-how-i-roll.html

in 1972 we all rolled 3d6, but later when AD&D made the stats more meaningful, players would keep rolling until they got more viable numbers, so then we switched to various systems--roll seven or eight times with 3d6 and keep the six best totals or roll d4d and throw out the lowest die.

After all, the object of the game is to have fun, and weak PCs aren't much fun for most players. Even fine role-players want characters with at least one or two redeming stats...

That clearly indicates that what he meant by the PHB quote was for DMs to allow players to re-roll crappy stats.

Edit: The link on the above site wasn't working, so I went and found the quote here in post#1723

http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?22566-Q-amp-A-with-Gary-Gygax/page87&highlight=GYGAX

 

[aramis erak]

I think I much preferred our first method, for option two usually lead to fighters with 18.% STR and 18 DEX, with Wisdom as low as they could.

Throg Strong like Ox. Throg Smart Like Ox, too.

I've known a few people who do that no matter the control over character creation, other than Roll each att in order.

In Traveller, both CT and MT, I allow 2x 1d rerolls - and allow using them to replace 1d of a 2d roll, or both on one 2d roll. And have done so since about September 1984, when I took over the Ref duties with the group I'd played with the previous school year.

In AD&D, back in the day (Talking the 1980's) we used 4d6k3 in order, swap one pair, reroll all 1's one time only (so a rerolled 1 was stuck a 1)... Which was pretty much medieval super heroes.

I don't actually miss, nor do I mind, random rolling, but I'll note that certain new games provide a VERY different method of "discovering a character" from the "random rolls"...

The "Blank Sheet" method is used in several more modern games. As you need game stats, you fill it in from a slate. Several Fate games using a skill pyramid present this as an option.

In AD&D terms, you'd start with race and class, make the 6 or 7 rolls, assign one or two to the prime requisites, and go from there. When you need a new stat modifier for an empty stat, fill in from the remaining rolls.

In Fate, you start with 3 of your (usually) 5 aspects picked, and 1 or 2 skills defined, and placed into the skill pyramid. As you later need to know where other skills are, you fill them in on the skill pyramid, until it's full (all remaining are rated at poor).

Castle Falkenstein is similar to Fate, you get X skills at specified ranks, as you need them, you assign them.

 

[ccs]

The tough part of the random roll question is this: You're in a 3E game, and you don't roll a single stat over 12. It's not that hard to do with 4D6, drop lowest. I've seen it happen--recently.

Or, you're in a 1E AD&D game, and you don't roll a single stat over 14.

Can you play, enjoy playing, and really make something of that character? The Hobbit who saves the world, so to speak?

Yes I can.

The worst stated character I ever played was a 1/2ling for whom the best thing that could be said about his stats was: "Well, he doesn't have a - mod from his Con Score."

Despite/because of his handicaps Garth was a fun character to play.

 

[pemerton]

[MENTION=23751]Maxperson[/MENTION] - I'm not saying anything about how Gygax ran his game. I'm reporting what the AD&D rulebooks say.

 

[Sunseeker]

Don't we honestly "discover" our character during play no matter which way we come to the table?

Sure, we may have ideas about them being good or evil or kind or cold or whatever, but the scores don't stop us from bring any of those things. Even low-int people can be witty. But, backstory and chosen scores or not, assuming we're not closed off to the idea of character growth we often find the character we end up with to be a lot different than the character we started off with.

 

[5ekyu]

Yes I can.

The worst stated character I ever played was a 1/2ling for whom the best thing that could be said about his stats was: "Well, he doesn't have a - mod from his Con Score."

Despite/because of his handicaps Garth was a fun character to play.

Rollmaster
Like ten stats with percentiles.
Roll d100 ten times.
Reroll any 20.
Promote any two to 90.
...
...
My worst char had five 21-29, two 90, anf nothing else above 75.

Yes that is after rerolls and promotions.

That was my worst rolled character... Named him Fishbait.

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