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Thomas Shey

Legend
I think a lot of us are also trusting that, if Amazon do go away, people will be able to find a way to liberate the books in question, or resupply them from an alternate source, because they exist digitally. Some are intentionally DRM-free, too.

Currently my biggest complaint with Kindle is that the methods of backing their books up offline is so painful. I can promise I'll still sit down and do it the moment I hear of the Kindle Store being likely to go away.

(As it is, I was super-thrilled to find out my Kindle Analog subscription is going away because apparently their publisher and Amazon had a falling out).

I certainly moved to ebooks and audiobooks a long time ago and am not interested in going back. I like real books and still read them sometimes when they're given to me, and I carry one in my backpack as a backup most of the time, but I don't find any difference in the level of enthrallment or the like.

I went away from physical products largely for space reasons (though outside the stupidly expensive cost of Kindle books, cost was also a factor).
 

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Thomas Shey

Legend
My dad points out that after the databases have disintegrated in 20 years, the books will still be around for after 200 years. He worries about massive loss of cultural data.

This is only true now if people are not willing to do the lifting to do migration. As I noted I have readable material from 30 years ago in digital form.
 

Yaarel

He Mage
This is only true now if people are not willing to do the lifting to do migration. As I noted I have readable material from 30 years ago in digital form.
MANY scholars at universities have already lost their lifes work because their electronic data corrupted.

Replacing electronic equipment is expensive. Thus the poor and upcoming are likelier to lose their information. Society as a whole suffers from this loss of the reliability to archive.
 

Thomas Shey

Legend
MANY scholars at universities have already lost their lifes work because their electronic data corrupted.

How does that disagree with my statement? The world is full of people who just expect data to take care of itself. That isn't even entirely safe with physical media, why do people expect it to be true with digital?

Maintaining media requires effort on someone's part. Older physical material had a slower decay problem, but was far more complicated to make sure was carried forward. There was a period when it was not a given that you could find a way to format switch without someone doing a lot of heavy lifting, but that period is in the past; if it happens now its usually because no one was willing to sit down and do it. And to be clear, with the volume of material out there, that's not surprising, but it doesn't make digital information uniquely frangible, barring something like massive EMP strikes. Seen much from the Library of Alexandria lately?
 

Yaarel

He Mage
How does that disagree with my statement?
Your statement came across as if the people who lost their lifes work deserve it because they were "unwilling" to buy new incredibly expensive electronic equipment.

Many libraries and (all?) schools dont have extra money floating around to spend on buying the newest and the latest electronics.

Entire nations around the planet are at risk of devastating cultural loss of information every 25 years.
 

Yaarel

He Mage
Does your dad realise that data can be ported from one hard drive to another? :) I'd like to see a book pull off that trick!

There are of course more nuances to this discussion, but in general your dad's point is a bit off the mark.
My dad and brother are in the computer security and development, respectively.
 

Thomas Shey

Legend
Your statement came across as if the people who lost their lifes work deserve it because they were "unwilling" to buy new incredibly expensive electronic equipment.

Many libraries and (all?) schools dont have extra money floating around to spend on buying the newest and the latest electronics.

Entire nations around the planet are at risk of devastating cultural loss of information every 25 years.

Most of what I'm talking about could be done with a typical home PC and the right software. This seriously is not as difficult as it used to be.

What it does require is some time on someone's part. And that's always been true. Ask any professional preservationist how hard it is to find intact copies of books less than a hundred years old in many cases.

If someone is not willing to do the work to do preservation, you lose things. That's true about digital material, paper or clay tablets. The tradeoff as you move toward the modern period is that things are more brittle but also easier to save en masse.

There was a dead space when digital formats and storage were changing fast enough it required considerable extra work to save things. We're well past that, and it really has reached the point where if you lose material that's in existence now (and not on 20-30 year old media, which is a sign someone has been lax before), its because no one thought it was worth the effort to save it. If that's offensive, its no less true.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
How does that disagree with my statement? The world is full of people who just expect data to take care of itself. That isn't even entirely safe with physical media, why do people expect it to be true with digital?
My books take care of themselves*. If data can't do the same then why do I want to trust it? Further, when that data isn't even stored on a machine or media I own or control but is on a machine or media someone else owns or controls (i.e. "the cloud") I'm also expected to trust that owner to keep that storage going and the media available for me to access whenever I want.

And yet digital is hailed as the answer to everything.

* - barring calamaties like fire or flood, which hammer physical and digital media equally.
Maintaining media requires effort on someone's part. Older physical material had a slower decay problem, but was far more complicated to make sure was carried forward. There was a period when it was not a given that you could find a way to format switch without someone doing a lot of heavy lifting, but that period is in the past; if it happens now its usually because no one was willing to sit down and do it. And to be clear, with the volume of material out there, that's not surprising, but it doesn't make digital information uniquely frangible, barring something like massive EMP strikes. Seen much from the Library of Alexandria lately?
For most people's general purposes and for their own personally-owned media (literature, movies, music, etc.), having something last as long as they live is probably enough. A reliable 100-year lifespan and you're good for most non-archival and-or non-professional things anyone would want; and we can leave it to the professional archivists to preserve historical records etc. in perpetuity.

If something doesn't reliably last 20 years, however, that's nowhere near good enough. And expecting people to put effort - or worse, money - into ongoing upkeep of something that really should be buy once and forget (like a typical book) isn't good enough either.

This is one of my really big complaints with so-called technological advances: the end consumer is far too often expected to either buy the same media again or pay to have it transferred, every time a technology is declared obsolete.
 

I went away from physical products largely for space reasons (though outside the stupidly expensive cost of Kindle books, cost was also a factor).
Same. Living in the UK, in London specifically, I just don't have room for the libraries of books I go through. I have literally hundreds of books in my Kindle and Audible lists (and a number from other places, like Google Books). If those were physical, esp. as many of them are chunky tomes, that'd be several extra shelves worth, and I was already over realistic capacity.
Replacing electronic equipment is expensive. Thus the poor and upcoming are likelier to lose their information. Society as a whole suffers from this loss of the reliability to archive.
I get the concern here, and true poverty absolutely does mean you are likely to lose information you're trying to retain (though this also applies to physical formats, for the most part, and it hurts my heart thinking about it). I mean hell, I'm not even nearly poor, but I can't afford to maintain physical information because I don't have the space for it. I think this is something North Americans particularly tend to overlook, because houses are simply far larger relative to their cost (especially relative to earnings). That's changing fast as the house markets of the US and Canada are being depleted and controlled by various forces, but people over about 45 who have worked that whole time likely have a decent-sized property (if they live outside the densest coastal cities, anyway). It's much easier to decide "physical is the best!" when you genuinely have enough room.

Re: upcoming as most of those people are younger I suspect most data loss is due to not attempting preservation. That's not a judgement or criticism, it's just how it is. When you're young, you don't realize how easily information disappears. The number of posts and articles and so on I would have saved from the 1990s and '00s internet particularly is wild. Hell, a forum I used to go to got shut down in 2020 or so with basically no notice, and there was a review thread which I have literally have paid money to retain, in part because I'd written so many reviews on it, some of them even containing some shred of intelligence lol.
* - barring calamaties like fire or flood, which hammer physical and digital media equally.
That's not quite true. Calamities hammer physical digital media, but they don't usually hammer digital media stored online. This is part of why I'm increasingly moving media online. There are other threats there, of course, which don't apply to physical media. But it's not an identical situation.
This is one of my really big complaints with so-called technological advances: the end consumer is far too often expected to either buy the same media again or pay to have it transferred, every time a technology is declared obsolete.
Part of the problem here is that technology isn't declared obsolete in some neat and agreed way, because if that did happen, we'd see clear upgrade paths and good information on how to move on, and indeed, moving on would be much cheaper because everyone would be doing it.

Instead technology slowly becomes seen as obsolete, even as some people keep using it. And thus we don't get a neat and clean "Okay now use this to replace that, here's the method for transferring it", we get something spotty and unreliable.
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
My books take care of themselves*. If data can't do the same then why do I want to trust it? Further, when that data isn't even stored on a machine or media I own or control but is on a machine or media someone else owns or controls (i.e. "the cloud") I'm also expected to trust that owner to keep that storage going and the media available for me to access whenever I want.

And yet digital is hailed as the answer to everything.

* - barring calamaties like fire or flood, which hammer physical and digital media equally.

For most people's general purposes and for their own personally-owned media (literature, movies, music, etc.), having something last as long as they live is probably enough. A reliable 100-year lifespan and you're good for most non-archival and-or non-professional things anyone would want; and we can leave it to the professional archivists to preserve historical records etc. in perpetuity.

If something doesn't reliably last 20 years, however, that's nowhere near good enough. And expecting people to put effort - or worse, money - into ongoing upkeep of something that really should be buy once and forget (like a typical book) isn't good enough either.

This is one of my really big complaints with so-called technological advances: the end consumer is far too often expected to either buy the same media again or pay to have it transferred, every time a technology is declared obsolete.
At least we don’t use cds anymore. I can’t think of all the games or music cds I bought again due to damaging the disk. Mostly games I guess because at that time you usually burned your own music cds instead of buying them.
 

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