D&D 5E CRs and what is going on?

[MontyKC1974]

Two level 5 Paladins, sword and board very defensive minded, one level 5 cleric, healing. And the Bishop of there church a level 9 cleric.

 

[lowkey13]

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[MontyKC1974]

Well the history of my world has several demons locked away. Once they die they are in hell until some great power lets them back on the planet. They must stick close to there "Jails" until they can destroy them. Which is what they were trying to do.

That being said, yes, I could have played it better.

 

[lowkey13]

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[lowkey13]

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[DEFCON 1]

Dont get me wrong the Balor knocked the Cleric out, the Paladin out and even got the ranger down enough she ran away.

But the barbarian was just to much, as well as the healing they used from potions and such.

It sucks that such a powerful monster was taken out so easily.

They are all level 9 now. I think upping the ante is in order.

BTW The second fight I gave them help in the form of 4 pretty powerful NPC's.

Still they lost 3 of the NPCs, 4 of 6 party members went down.

They won, but it was a very difficult and harrowing fight.

EDIT: That doesnt make the fact that these monsters were 9 and 12 CR higher then the party any easier to swallow though.

What I'm reading here is that the group didn't win "handily". If 4 of the 6 party members went down and 3 of the 4 NPCs were lost... that's not "handily" anything. What are you using as the definition of "handily"? That they won the fight and there were no actual deaths? More often than not... depending on the type of DM you are, you WON'T see any deaths because the odds of those unconscious PCs reaching 3 failed Death saves via rolling each round tends to be very rare. But did you have the Balor ever curbstomp any of the PCs that were unconscious? You start doing that, and those automatic failed Death saves from damage pile up right quick and you can kill characters much easier. But if you aren't the type of DM that attacks unconscious PCs, then getting to death doesn't happen that easily... not when there are all kinds of ways to stabilize PCs during combat.

So if you are looking to actually kill some PCs, next time you just need to be more cutthroat about it.

 

[Iosue]

So I ask do the CR's mean nothing in 5th edition?

As a point of fact, CR means "an appropriately equipped and well-rested party of four adventurers should be able to defeat a monster that has a challenge rating equal to its level without suffering any deaths."

With a party of six, it's not going to be that accurate. Figure that a party of four, level 7, with say, one d10 HD PC, two d8 HD PCs, and one d6 PC. They're going to have, on average, 144 total hp, give or take some for CON bonuses. A balor does an average of 59 points of damage when hitting with both attacks, so in general is going to pound that party in 3 or 4 rounds. You say your party did 250 points of damage in 3 rounds. If we take away two PCs worth of damage, that's 166 points of damage, which means the Balor's in good shape after 3 rounds, while the party is on its last legs.

Now, add two more d8 HD PCs, and the party's total hp is increased by 76 hp, to a total of 220! Now it's going to take at least 4, maybe 5 or 6 depending on how he rolls. As you note, your group can do 250 pts of damage in 3 rounds. The balor can't repel fire power of that magnitude.

That's just the math, without getting into healing, lucky rolls, local tactical effects and synergy, and whether you played the balor optimally. Just as being outnumbered 6 to 1 can make even low level monsters dangerous to PCs, being outnumbered 6 to 1 can make even low level PCs dangerous to monsters.

If you've got a big group, rather than give them smaller groups of high level enemies, try giving them larger (6+) groups of similarly leveled enemies. Out number them 2 to 1 with monsters slightly higher in level. See what happens. You may find the CR working more as it was intended.

Edit: I didn't see or crossposted with a lot of responses, so my post may not be particularly relevant...

 

[MontyKC1974]

What I'm reading here is that the group didn't win "handily". If 4 of the 6 party members went down and 3 of the 4 NPCs were lost... that's not "handily" anything. What are you using as the definition of "handily"? That they won the fight and there were no actual deaths? More often than not... depending on the type of DM you are, you WON'T see any deaths because the odds of those unconscious PCs reaching 3 failed Death saves via rolling each round tends to be very rare. But did you have the Balor ever curbstomp any of the PCs that were unconscious? You start doing that, and those automatic failed Death saves from damage pile up right quick and you can kill characters much easier. But if you aren't the type of DM that attacks unconscious PCs, then getting to death doesn't happen that easily... not when there are all kinds of ways to stabilize PCs during combat.

So if you are looking to actually kill some PCs, next time you just need to be more cutthroat about it.

Yeah the fought a Marilith in an earlier session and I murdered 4 of the PCs outright.

I did kinda feel bad about that.

So this one I was a little nicer.

 

[MontyKC1974]

As a point of fact, CR means "an appropriately equipped and well-rested party of four adventurers should be able to defeat a monster that has a challenge rating equal to its level without suffering any deaths."

With a party of six, it's not going to be that accurate. Figure that a party of four, level 7, with say, one d10 HD PC, two d8 HD PCs, and one d6 PC. They're going to have, on average, 144 total hp, give or take some for CON bonuses. A balor does an average of 59 points of damage when hitting with both attacks, so in general is going to pound that party in 3 or 4 rounds. You say your party did 250 points of damage in 3 rounds. If we take away two PCs worth of damage, that's 166 points of damage, which means the Balor's in good shape after 3 rounds, while the party is on its last legs.

Now, add two more d8 HD PCs, and the party's total hp is increased by 76 hp, to a total of 220! Now it's going to take at least 4, maybe 5 or 6 depending on how he rolls. As you note, your group can do 250 pts of damage in 3 rounds. The balor can't repel fire power of that magnitude.

That's just the math, without getting into healing, lucky rolls, local tactical effects and synergy, and whether you played the balor optimally. Just as being outnumbered 6 to 1 can make even low level monsters dangerous to PCs, being outnumbered 6 to 1 can make even low level PCs dangerous to monsters.

If you've got a big group, rather than give them smaller groups of high level enemies, try giving them larger (6+) groups of similarly leveled enemies. Out number them 2 to 1 with monsters slightly higher in level. See what happens. You may find the CR working more as it was intended.

Edit: I didn't see or crossposted with a lot of responses, so my post may not be particularly relevant...

Alot of good information, and I will look into making an encounter with more enemies of equal or lower level with multiple attacks/actions.

 

[Iosue]

Alot of good information, and I will look into making an encounter with more enemies of equal or lower level with multiple attacks/actions.

Equal or slightly higher level. Remember, CR is calibrated to a party of four.