Cultural Appropriation in role-playing games (draft)

[Bedrockgames]

I know. And I agree.

But even quoting Kipling without condemning him will be counted as proof positive in some circles that you are a racist.

Anyway, Kipling didn't agree that "never the twain" can meet. What he actually wrote was condemning that:

"Oh, East is East and West is West, and never the twain shall meet,
Till Earth and Sky stand presently at God's great Judgment Seat:
But there is neither East nor West, Border, nor Breed, nor Birth,
When two strong men stand face to face, though they come from the ends of the earth!"

I've said before that "cultural appropriation" and its surrounding intellectual framework is a strand nakedly 19th century "progressive" racism, and I meant it. Kipling was speaking out against its philosophies, just as I am here and in the same language, long before it ever was labeled "political correctness".

I wasn't suggesting that the whole poem can be reduced to that one line. It just captured an assumption that seems to be embedded in the concept of CA.

 

[Celebrim]

I wasn't suggesting that the whole poem can be reduced to that one line. It just captured an assumption that seems to be embedded in the concept of CA.

Ok, well in that case, either by art or accident you were 100% spot on. I just wanted to make clear to your or any other reader that it wasn't Kipling that was voicing admiration for that idea, and that in fact Kipling was attacking it.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Ok, well in that case, either by art or accident you were 100% spot on. I just wanted to make clear to your or any other reader that it wasn't Kipling that was voicing admiration for that idea, and that in fact Kipling was attacking it.

It was by accident. I haven't given Kipling much thought since I had to take two required lit. courses. That line just stuck in my head. I have to admit I am not much into poetry or literature.

 

[Bagpuss]

Did you ever make this vlog?

 

[Grumpy RPG Reviews]

I have been busy with real life issues and work - I am at a business confrence right now - and hope to make the vlog this weekend.

 

[The Yellow Pill]

Ok, yes, then I agree and am on the same page as you.

This is what is called "cocktail liberalism". You have an education sufficient to allow you to pass as a member of the right social class, as being "our sort of people", when at an exclusive cocktail party. Arguably, college education exists primarily for that reason, and not the reason the average middle class person assumes - to help prepare them for a job.

Having at least that much education myself and been invited on that account to a number of such cocktail parties, some of the worst racism I've ever encounter was in situations like that.

One of the reasons I'm a fan of Ruby Payne why I believe her program works time and time again is it acknowledges the hidden rules of economic class and how it is most often that - and not education, skill or experience - that keeps people locked in their current economic class. Her programs mainly center on teaching those hidden rules to people in poverty and though it's amazing seeing how effective those programs can be, it's also a little depressing about the state of things if you think too hard about it.

In fact, if you look at the roots of many "progressive" causes, particularly those rooted in either socialist or social-engineering schools of thought, it's scary just how prolific the elitist and classist roots are. A number of the suffragettes were basically arguing that lowly working class men shouldn't have a say in government before women of class and culture do.

 

[Bedrockgames]

One of the reasons I'm a fan of Ruby Payne why I believe her program works time and time again is it acknowledges the hidden rules of economic class and how it is most often that - and not education, skill or experience - that keeps people locked in their current economic class. Her programs mainly center on teaching those hidden rules to people in poverty and though it's amazing seeing how effective those programs can be, it's also a little depressing about the state of things if you think too hard about it.

In fact, if you look at the roots of many "progressive" causes, particularly those rooted in either socialist or social-engineering schools of thought, it's scary just how prolific the elitist and classist roots are. A number of the suffragettes were basically arguing that lowly working class men shouldn't have a say in government before women of class and culture do.

I just want to be clear that I am not throwing my hat in here with conservatives or anti-progressives. I am a liberal and I am a democrat. I may even vote for Bernie Sanders this election. I just think there is room in the hobby for lots of different points of view and that when we get hung up on esoteric concepts like CA it creates more barriers between people than anything else. I think too often discussion about media or gaming is framed as a zero sum game between the left and the right. The thinking feels like: if we can just get out all the liberals, or just get out all the conservatives, or if we just hit them hard enough this one time, they'll go away and things will be perfect.

I guess my other issue is this really seems to be about shaming people in a negative way. The Monte Cook games incident came up earlier and as a case in point I think there was a lot of attempts to shame the company into doing something different. There was also a lot of dialogue. But the shaming, particularly when it was directed primarily toward Shanna Germain who has been nothing but open and accepting of everyone, troubled me. It felt cruel. It felt like people were high on feeling righteous. I think there were also plenty of people coming to the table making real points and expressing real concerns. But there was an ugliness that emerged there as well. That kind of shaming I simply can't get behind or support. Particularly when you are talking about something as everyday as gaming. When I hear people say "He'll think twice before trying that again"....I find that a very chilling mindset to contemplate. I don't think that is a healthy way to encourage change. If Monte Cook is only avoiding things because he's afraid of how people react, that seems like an almost coercive situation. I mean, if someone voices a complaint and he mulls it over and agrees, then decides to make a change, that is cool. The approach that just tries to shame him into another course of action, just feels like bullying to me.

 

[The Yellow Pill]

Nor am I characterizing you as such, and in fact many who would also call themselves liberal Democrats are starting to have serious problems with the SJW mentality. Examples: http://www.spectator.co.uk/features...ys-students-want-the-right-to-be-comfortable/ http://www.vox.com/2015/6/3/8706323/college-professor-afraid

I, likewise, could not be categorized into the Glenn Beck camp, but I do believe the SJW phenomenon isn't just a random bubble of weirdness but can be directly traced back to some of the roots of progressivism, and one of those biggest roots is a hatred of the plebs.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Nor am I characterizing you as such, and in fact many who would also call themselves liberal Democrats are starting to have serious problems with the SJW mentality. Examples: http://www.spectator.co.uk/features...ys-students-want-the-right-to-be-comfortable/ http://www.vox.com/2015/6/3/8706323/college-professor-afraid

I, likewise, could not be categorized into the Glenn Beck camp, but I do believe the SJW phenomenon isn't just a random bubble of weirdness but can be directly traced back to some of the roots of progressivism, and one of those biggest roots is a hatred of the plebs.

You can find plenty of examples of classism on the right as well. For ages Republicans were viewed as the party of the wealthy while democrats were viewed as the party of the workers. When I was a kid, being liberal and being working class were strongly linked. I think there really isn't much strong evidence to support the line of causality you claim here. You can always find a person or group in any movement that expressed a particular sentiment in history...that doesn't demonstrate a direct line to behavior today. It doesn't mean it is a legacy of the thing you are pointing to.

 

[Bedrockgames]

A number of the suffragettes were basically arguing that lowly working class men shouldn't have a say in government before women of class and culture do.

I don't know much about this, but your at least going to have to site some primary sources making these statements and some reliable secondary sources demonstrating how widespread they were. I don't normally like to press for sources but this is a sweeping claim and I am going to ignore it if it isn't supported with reputable sources.

That said, when you go back that far, you get people saying all kinds of terrible things on all sides because people were way less sensitive about others then. But I think the suffragettes were right to demand the vote. Have to admit, I get a 'feminism bad' vibe when one of the first things you raise in your critique of the left is suffragettes behaving badly. I wouldn't want to paint a whole movement as this negative thing even if those sorts of sentiments were expressed by some of their members.