Custom Monster: Slow Giant

[sfedi]

I always wanted to make a monster like this.
A Giant that felt you couldn't stand ground against.
But that it was slow and you could easily outmaneuver.

I made it as level 1, but the idea is to scale it to whatever level you need it.

The Giant is also missing encounter powers.

But I wanted you feedback before adding that.


Slow Giant Level 1 Brute
Large natural humanoid XP 100

Initiative –1 Senses Perception +6
HP 46; Bloodied 23
AC 13; Fortitude 14; Reflex 12; Will 13
Speed 6

Slap (standard; at-will)
Quickest attack that it can make
Reach 2; +4 vs AC; 4 and the target is prone, dazed, slowed and can't run until the end of Slow Giant's next turn

Raise Club (move; at-will)
Pick a square as the target square of Smash. After this action the next action Slow Giant must take is a Smash. Slow Giant's grants Combat Advantage until Smash is used.

Smash (standard; at-will)
Special: Raise Club must be the preceding action to this one. This Power targets an area. Everyone at the target square and adjacent to it are subject to this attack.
Reach 2; +4 vs AC; 3d8 + 6 Miss: Half damage

Slow Reflexes (no action; at-will)
Slow Giant can't take an Opportunity Attack on the first time it is triggered. He can take it on the second and subsequent triggers.

Alignment Unaligned Languages Giant
Skills Endurance +10, Nature +6
Str 20 (+5) Dex 8 (–1) Wis 12 (+1)
Con 20 (+5) Int 8 (–1) Cha 8 (–1)
Equipment Club, Hide Armor

 

[Mesh Hong]

Its an interesting idea, but in the end I don’t think that Raise Club (move action) and Smash (standard action) is that restrictive.

In this case I think the problem lies with the basic melee attack that knocks prone, dazes and slows. It just makes it too easy for the Slow Giant to set up its Smash as the target will only be able to stand on its turn meaning that the Slow Giant is almost assured of its main attack path.

Also in reality melee characters will have to come within reach of the creature to fight it, so it’s move action – standard action attack isn’t that restrictive. Many creatures don’t use a movement action at all in the middle rounds of combat.
(note: this attack path is certainly not restrictive enough to use the high limited damage expression as it could probably use it every round)

I do like the intention though. Maybe you could give the creature a 1/round minor action kick attack (thinking about it to emphasise that this is a slow creature you could make this attack its basic melee attack) then have Raise Club as a standard action (thus allowing your grants combat advantage idea a chance to work) making any attacks keyed from Raise Club deal 1.5x high expression damage to a single target or high expression damage to an area, blast or burst. The concept being very high damage every other round. You might need to balance the attack slightly, maybe give the attack a +1 or +2 to hit bonus.
(note: I see you are already using high limited expression damage which is higher than my suggestion so I think that’s fine as is and probably doesn’t need an attack bonus)

Kick (minor, at will) 1/round
Attack +4 vs. AC; 1d6+3; on hit target is pushed 1 square; on miss target may shift 1 square as a immediate free action

Note: I included an on miss free shift action to emphasise the characters being more agile than the creature and to continue the slow theme.

EDIT - Additional idea
I would also be tempted to say that the creature was using an oversized weapon and therefore had +1 reach (with weapon attacks), this would work well with the creatures theme.

 

[eamon]

Slow reflexes is a bit unclear to me. What's the first time an OA is triggered? The first time each encounter? Each round? each turn? Do you count seperately for separate triggers?

I would rework this for clarity and extra coolness factor into something like

Slow Reflexes: Any creature fighting the Slow Giant can easily outmaneuver the slow giant. Minor action by any creature fighting the slow giant: the creature does not provoke opportunity attacks from the Slow Giant until the start of its next turn.

(Alternatively, you could make it a free action 1/round to avoid penalizing minor action users so heavily, but still retain the effect that you can only outwit one slow giant in any round.)

 

[eamon]

I also think this kind of monster should best be fought when outnumbered; I'd make the giant an elite (perhaps with a solo variant that has some extra tricks - say, a goblin riding on it's back ).

Mesh Hong's idea to make the Raise Club action a standard one also sounds good. I think it would be interesting to limit the combat advantage slightly: have it grant combat advantage to those enemies within its melee reach (i.e. range 2). This is nice tactically because it forces people into a trade-off (getting close and being vulnerable to the big smash but also getting CA).

If you really want to rub it in, give the giant a twice the hit points, but let attacks with CA deal double damage.

It'll be a weird creature, make sure to playtest it before jumping it on your victims ;-).

 

[sfedi]

Wow guys, great feedback!

Thank you very much!

Let's see each point you've made:

Its an interesting idea, but in the end I don’t think that Raise Club (move action) and Smash (standard action) is that restrictive.

The main idea is that you can't stand by the Giant and trade blows with him.
That's why if you allow him to use his move-standard, you basically loose.

Let's see how.

In this case I think the problem lies with the basic melee attack that knocks prone, dazes and slows. It just makes it too easy for the Slow Giant to set up its Smash as the target will only be able to stand on its turn meaning that the Slow Giant is almost assured of its main attack path.

Yes, that's exactly the idea.

Since you shouldn't be confronting the Giant standing your ground, you should attack him and move (without provoking OAs thanks to Slow Reflexes), thus you force him to move to your position.
Once there, the Giant can't use Raise Club because you would escape, so he must Slap you to do so.

Note that though he can easily setup his Smash, his DPR isn't affected this way:
The damage you should have taken this round you got Slapped, will be taken next round if he misses.

If next round he hits, then you get both damages together: this round's plus next round's (thus the Limited High Damage expression, which in fact should be 2 x Normal Damage)

Also in reality melee characters will have to come within reach of the creature to fight it, so it’s move action – standard action attack isn’t that restrictive. Many creatures don’t use a movement action at all in the middle rounds of combat.

That's what I'm trying to avoid: to people stand and fight him. I want people to run from the Giant.

(...) The concept being very high damage every other round. (..)

Yes, that's basically the idea of this monster.

Kick (minor, at will) 1/round
Attack +4 vs. AC; 1d6+3; on hit target is pushed 1 square; on miss target may shift 1 square as a immediate free action

I love this idea.
I was thinking of something like this for an encounter power, or an At-Will Burst 2, that does the same, low damage, and "force" the targets to shift out of the area if they don't want to get hit.

Note: I included an on miss free shift action to emphasise the characters being more agile than the creature and to continue the slow theme.

Yeah, that's a great idea.

Slow reflexes is a bit unclear to me. What's the first time an OA is triggered? The first time each encounter? Each round? each turn? Do you count seperately for separate triggers?

Yes, I was afraid that it would be unclear.
Let's see, the main idea is that although you can move out from the Giant with impunity (you don't provoque OA the first square/first trigger) you shouldn't be able to escape from him if he has you against a wall or in a restricted terrain.

Maybe I should rephrase it to: "Enemies don't provoque OAs from the Giant from the first square they leave".

Slow Reflexes: Any creature fighting the Slow Giant can easily outmaneuver the slow giant. Minor action by any creature fighting the slow giant: the creature does not provoke opportunity attacks from the Slow Giant until the start of its next turn.

The problem with this is that it doesn't accomplish the above.

The main idea is that: you should be able to hit him, and then move.
But you shouldn't be able to walk around him with impunity.

I also think this kind of monster should best be fought when outnumbered; I'd make the giant an elite (perhaps with a solo variant that has some extra tricks - say, a goblin riding on it's back ).

Conceptually, you are right.
In fact, I doubt that making this a Standard monster is a good way to go, but I wanted to start with this because it's simpler and then work for the Elite and Solo versions.

Mesh Hong's idea to make the Raise Club action a standard one also sounds good. I think it would be interesting to limit the combat advantage slightly: have it grant combat advantage to those enemies within its melee reach (i.e. range 2). This is nice tactically because it forces people into a trade-off (getting close and being vulnerable to the big smash but also getting CA).

The thing is that this creature is extremely difficult to fight in melee, in fact, the idea is that you shouldn't fight it in melee, so I have to introduce a way to gain CA against it in other ways (being Ready to make a ranged attack or a charge once you know where the Giant will land it's Smash).

If you really want to rub it in, give the giant a twice the hit points, but let attacks with CA deal double damage.

I thought about something like this, but I don't know if it would fit with the theme of the creature.
Nevertheless, I wanted to nail down tha Raise Club-Smash mechanic first.

It'll be a weird creature, make sure to playtest it before jumping it on your victims ;-).

That will be the next step after checking this creature with you guys

 

[fuzzlewump]

Very cool concept. I don't think it's appropriate as a level 1 monster, I would say at least 4 and I think it should be elite as well. The bookkeeping of knowing whether or not his club is raised or not would be very annoying if you were running 5 of them versus the PC's.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Hmmm. Interesting. I do like the concept. I wonder if there is a less oblique way of accomplishing it though.

How about
Club Smash (standard; recharge 5,6) * Weapon
Reach 2; +4 vs Reflex; (high) damage. Miss; half damage. Special; all enemies adjacent to the target take (low) damage.

Slow Reflexes
The Slow Giant does not make opportunity attacks.

Actually he COULD do even without Slow Reflexes if Club Smash is his only standard melee power. He can hold onto it and try to OA someone, but given its low usage rate its not likely. He can then have Slap as a secondary power that can't be used as an OA. In fact he could have any number of other powers as long as none of them can be used as OAs.

This preserves the basic concept of a monster you DON'T want to get close to, but a highly mobile character who waits for the right moment can try to dart in and take a shot. He's just risking brutal damage in return if he doesn't get it right.

I'm reminded of the old Metagaming micro-game "Ogre". The Ogre tank was vastly powerful and could simply crush the enemy under its treads. But the enemy could always dart in, do a bit of damage, and dart back out again. If they were clever the GEVs could always run in different directions and force the Ogre to choose between moving towards its goal or taking a side trip to crush you. Its a great game and really reminds me of the tactical situation you're looking for here.

 

[sfedi]

Hmmm. Interesting. I do like the concept. I wonder if there is a less oblique way of accomplishing it though.

Me too

How about
Club Smash (standard; recharge 5,6) * Weapon
Reach 2; +4 vs Reflex; (high) damage. Miss; half damage. Special; all enemies adjacent to the target take (low) damage.

The problem with this is that it has no tension.
Once he recharges, he moves and BANG! you get smacked.

One critical aspect of the creature I want to evoke is the "Oh My God! Tusk is going to get Smashed!" or something like that

That's why I want to make it a two stage process: First, move and Slap the enemy, then Raise and Smash.
This also creates the opportunity for other party members to come in to the rescue: moving the Giant, giving actions to the ally, making him shift (after he stands up), etc.

Slow Reflexes
The Slow Giant does not make opportunity attacks.

Actually he COULD do even without Slow Reflexes if Club Smash is his only standard melee power. He can hold onto it and try to OA someone, but given its low usage rate its not likely. He can then have Slap as a secondary power that can't be used as an OA. In fact he could have any number of other powers as long as none of them can be used as OAs.

I first thought of giving him no OAs as you propose (by not giving him basic attacks), but there was something that bothered me: What if a PC is cornered? I don't picture a PC against a wall versus this creature to simply walk away. But I do see PCs hitting him and escaping esasily, whether they are Strikers or not.

I'm reminded of the old Metagaming micro-game "Ogre". The Ogre tank was vastly powerful and could simply crush the enemy under its treads. But the enemy could always dart in, do a bit of damage, and dart back out again. If they were clever the GEVs could always run in different directions and force the Ogre to choose between moving towards its goal or taking a side trip to crush you. Its a great game and really reminds me of the tactical situation you're looking for here.

Don't know the game, but from what I read in the Wikipedia, you're right.

 

[eamon]

The main idea is that you can't stand by the Giant and trade blows with him.
That's why if you allow him to use his move-standard, you basically loose.

Ok, that may be fine for an elite or solo. It's way, way too powerful for a standard monster, however: an encounter with level+3 standard monsters equal in number to PC's should be surviveable. Here, however, the giants will simply pin down all PC's most of the time and reliably use the smash. The only thing PC's can then do is crawl (but that'll be almost impossible when slowed+dazed: a crawl would move just 1 square, and of course it gives up the standard action).

As is, the slap is too powerful for a standard monster, particularly in conjunction with the very lethal smash because many giants can do this to the entire party. Basically, vs. standard monsters, PC's just don't have a choice but to stand ground. You just can't escape from all of em.

Make him elite, and it's OK, though still very nasty.

Let's see, the main idea is that although you can move out from the Giant with impunity (you don't provoque OA the first square/first trigger) you shouldn't be able to escape from him if he has you against a wall or in a restricted terrain.

Maybe I should rephrase it to: "Enemies don't provoque OAs from the Giant from the first square they leave".

Putting the action into the hand's of the PC's is fun and is a reminder of the special OA rules. That's one reason why I prefer the action approach.

The main idea is that: you should be able to hit him, and then move.
But you shouldn't be able to walk around him with impunity.

I don't think the difference will actually matter very often. The real threat is his big smash anyhow, letting PC's spend a minor action to prance around the enemy won't change that. If you feel this is too easy, then I'd make it a free action 1/round to avoid one OA - that leaves the initiative in the PC's hands (fun) but is more limited.

Conceptually, you are right.
In fact, I doubt that making this a Standard monster is a good way to go, but I wanted to start with this because it's simpler and then work for the Elite and Solo versions.

As a standard monster, slap should really go. Even without it, his big smash will be abnormally effective in enclosed spaces. I understand it's nice to keep it simple; I really don't think it works here though.

The thing is that this creature is extremely difficult to fight in melee, in fact, the idea is that you shouldn't fight it in melee, so I have to introduce a way to gain CA against it in other ways (being Ready to make a ranged attack or a charge once you know where the Giant will land it's Smash).

How do you imagine melee characters will fight this giant? Most melee characters simply don't have the option to do hit+run tactics; they need to either start or end adjacent to the giant. Such characters shouldn't be useless in combat. Readied actions are reactions; you can't (normally) ready knowing which way a monster will strike.

Maybe that should be a focus first anyhow: how should the battle turn out, eventually? Then you can design the monster around that. As a matter of preference, I think it's better not to rely on readied actions anyhow, they slow down combat and initiative tracking when overused.

So: what kind of tactics should a bog-standard fighter or paladin use against this monster? That storyboard should guide monster-design.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

I think this is why I favor the standard action recharging version of Smash. It is RISKY for a fighter say to run up and start whacking on Slow Giant, but its not a tactic that is guaranteed to fail. I can see the fighter running up, drawing the Smash, and then the other melee characters darting in, dropping their best powers on Slow Giant, and then next round they all scramble away again. If they get unlucky one of them gets beaned a second time. The tension IMHO is still there. If you think about it the two-stage Smash plus Slap isn't REALLY all that different. The PC just has to luck out and not get hit with the Slap, vs lucking out that the Smash doesn't recharge right away.

Another possibility would be an action based recharge. Slow Giant can either move or recharge its Smash power. I think this just feels a bit less mechanically divergent from the way monsters typically work than the original version.

As for the lack of OA. As I said before, Slow Giant can always have a secondary attack that can be an MBA so he can punish someone if he corners them. It could be a reaction or a standard action. It could even be something like a power that only works when Smash is NOT available.

I also agree that the monster really doesn't work well as an ordinary monster. However I think its not a big deal in that the Smash mechanics are the real nut of the thing to work out. Once that's in place the rest of the stat block can be built around it.