[D&D Design Discussion] Preserving the "Sweet Spot"

[Mark CMG]

As for players just maxing out a limited number skills and not rounding out the character,I never had that problem. Then again, I require players to some spend points on background and cultural skills not related directly to adventuring.

What does "require" mean in this context?

 

[Greg K]

What does "require" mean in this context?

Prior to character creation, I'll sit with a player and ask them what class or classes they are considering to play from the list of classes that I allow for the campaign.

Once, I know what the player is considering, I'll then work with the player to make the character fit into the setting by helping them tie the background to some specific region, culture, and/or organization as appropriate to the setting even creating a class variant if appropriate. Once we have the background worked out, I'll require the player purchase a rank or two in one or two skills to reflect elements of the character background. For example:

1. if the fighter or rogue was raised by priests, the player will need to spend a rank or two on Knowledge (Religion).

2. If the character grew up a herder, I'll the character will need to put a rank or two into Handle Animal.

3. If the character spent time as a sailor, I'll require Profession (sailor).

 

[Mark CMG]

Prior to character creation, I'll sit with a player and ask them what class or classes they are considering to play from the list of classes that I allow for the campaign.

Once, I know what the player is considering, I'll then work with the player to make the character fit into the setting by helping them tie the background to some specific region, culture, and/or organization as appropriate to the setting even creating a class variant if appropriate. Once we have the background worked out, I'll require the player purchase a rank or two in one or two skills to reflect elements of the character background. For example:

1. if the fighter or rogue was raised by priests, the player will need to spend a rank or two on Knowledge (Religion).

2. If the character grew up a herder, I'll the character will need to put a rank or two into Handle Animal.

3. If the character spent time as a sailor, I'll require Profession (sailor).

So, for instance, if someone is from a mountainous region you'll require a couple of ranks in Balance and Climb? Do you also make those Class Skills for such a character?

 

[Greg K]

So, for instance, if someone is from a mountainous region you'll require a couple of ranks in Balance and Climb? Do you also make those Class Skills for such a character?

Yes, if the character is from a mountain region balance and climb would be required.

As for making required skills class skills, I use several options depending on the character background and player
1) work with the player to create a class variant (actually I have many pre-written dating back to early 3.0) which alter the class skills for a given class by switching out skills.

2.) offer a feat which makes those skills always class skills regardless of class

3) treat them as class skills for first level only.

For my next campaign, I am thinking of replacing 2) and 3) with something similar to d20 occupations- assuming we use DND.

 

[maggot]

Sorry I got cut off yesterday, I was typing a post and had to go, so I just hit send.

Evaluting Heal by comparing the amount it cures compared with other lower level spells is totally worthless.

I disagree. I think the fact that at 10th level you are healing for 4d8+10 and at 11th level you are healing for 110 is a big, unnecessary jump. You can look at it either at the 10th level number is too low, or the 11th level number is too high. To avoid the low-magic/high-magic argument, lets say that 11th level number is appropriate. If 110hp/spell healing is correct for 11th level, why are you healing for 1/4 that one level earlier. Are the CR11 monsters dishing out 4x damage over the CR10 monsters? Unlikely.

The problem with Teleport is that it's context is highly variable.

I think there ought to be room in the 9-level spell system (10 levels if you count cantrips) for a spell that allows teleport over a range of 1mile/level. This spell is clearly better than dimension door so it cannot be 4th level, and it is clearly worse than Tecplot, so it cannot be 5th level.

Also the game takes a tremendous jump: at 8th level you can only walk and ride and maybe fly for a bit. It will take days to travel 900miles. Next level, you can go 900miles in an action. I think that is too much of a jump. Perhaps at 9th level you can go 9miles in an action, and at 11th level you can go 110miles with a 6th level 10miles/level spell, and at 13th level you can go 1300miles with a 7th level 100miles/level spell. That would remove a lot of the disconnect.

Similarly, there's plenty of room of to go after raise dead.

Much of the room after raise dead is created by the game itself. You cannot be raised from the dead if you are killed by a death effect, you must use resurrection instead. An arbitrary rule to make the 7th level spell more effective. And then destruction (a death spell) has an added clause requiring the 9th level spell to undo it. Why?

 

[maggot]

It might be easier to impose a flat -2 "untrained" penalty than to give a free feat.

Excellent idea. That (level+3) cap thing has always bothered me as ineligant. I thought the reason was so at first level those with a class skill maxed get +4 and those with with the crossclass skill maxed get +2. That is pretty eligant, but I'm williing to sacrifice it for a flat -2 if you are untrained. That also encourages a bit of diversification.

 

[blargney the second]

I played in a campaign where we started character creation like Greg K described - it was one of the best I've ever experienced. It requires amazing an Winging It skill on the DM's part, and it's well worth it.

 

[Victim]

I disagree. I think the fact that at 10th level you are healing for 4d8+10 and at 11th level you are healing for 110 is a big, unnecessary jump. You can look at it either at the 10th level number is too low, or the 11th level number is too high. To avoid the low-magic/high-magic argument, lets say that 11th level number is appropriate. If 110hp/spell healing is correct for 11th level, why are you healing for 1/4 that one level earlier. Are the CR11 monsters dishing out 4x damage over the CR10 monsters? Unlikely.

No. I'd say that the cure X wounds is weaker than heal is too good. One reason for their weakness is that clerics can swap out of the Cure line, while they need to prep Heals. So it's okay if they aren't as good as regular spells. Also, the cure spells are designed to scale smoothly, instead of scaling for usefulness.

I think there ought to be room in the 9-level spell system (10 levels if you count cantrips) for a spell that allows teleport over a range of 1mile/level. This spell is clearly better than dimension door so it cannot be 4th level, and it is clearly worse than Tecplot, so it cannot be 5th level.

Also the game takes a tremendous jump: at 8th level you can only walk and ride and maybe fly for a bit. It will take days to travel 900miles. Next level, you can go 900miles in an action. I think that is too much of a jump. Perhaps at 9th level you can go 9miles in an action, and at 11th level you can go 110miles with a 6th level 10miles/level spell, and at 13th level you can go 1300miles with a 7th level 100miles/level spell. That would remove a lot of the disconnect.

You could make the short teleport 4th level with some hefty restrictions or long casting time. Or it could be 5th level without the inaccuracy and maybe some other side benefits - if you could port more allies or take willing creatures with you at range, it'd still be useful. But yeah, without some extra benefit, it would suck as a 5th level spell. The thing is, even without teleport around with its 900 miles, I think a 9 mile teleport without some extras would suck as a 5th level spell. 5th level spells can grant flight for extended periods, kill with a touch, turn people into animals - pretty classic stuff. Saving a few hours hiking isn't usually going to be worth the spell. Having a smooth mathematical progression isn't necessarily good if the spells it produces aren't useful enough to warrant their level.

There is a progression: 9th level spells have perfect transplanar travel, 7th level spells have perfect same plane travel and clumsy interplanar travel, and 5th level spells have clumsy world travel. The problem isn't that there's no progression. It's that the progression implies a change in scope which not everyone finds desireable. At high levels planar stuff is supposed to be where the action is; mundane stuff is less important. That's why most of the high level monsters are outsiders and such.

That change in scope is part of the reason the sweet spot ends. Making normal distance still significant while still making travel spells worthwhile should still be feasible though. If teleporting only works between preset locations, then PCs can't go wherever, whenever. If it's riskier, PCs will likely only use it when under considerable time pressure. You could scale the teleport by size of the campaign so the effect is less relative to the distances involved in the campaign. It could take longer for people to reform after teleporting so it's less viable
as an assassination move.

Much of the room after raise dead is created by the game itself. You cannot be raised from the dead if you are killed by a death effect, you must use resurrection instead. An arbitrary rule to make the 7th level spell more effective. And then destruction (a death spell) has an added clause requiring the 9th level spell to undo it. Why?

The idea that spells have certain restrictions hardly seems entirely arbitrary to me. You need a body to res someone? It's not like Destruction is the only means of eliminating a body. Spells hardly ever do "more." Fireball is 1d6/level, so is the Delayed Blast Fireball. If a level 20 caster wants to do 20d6 damage to one guy, he can just use Chain Lightning as a 6th level spell. The higher level spells are just adding side benefits; DBF can Delay itself and does full damage to targets in an area for 1 level higher. Horrid Wilting is 2 levels higher and still does the same damage, but it offers the ability to miss allies, non energy damage, and some tiny bonus against water creatures. Similarly, the ressurection line improves in the side benefits.

 

[AdmundfortGeographer]

So, in other words, Victim, there is no problem. Everything is fine?

 

[mhensley]

I would love to see what Mearls or other D&D developers had to say about this topic.