[D&D Design Discussion] Preserving the "Sweet Spot"

Valvorik

First Post
Unearhed Arcana death and dying variant

The brake on advancement in current rules is that "death" absorbs a level of experience and/or a chunk of resources slowing progression. {edit} - brake as in something stepped on to slow down, not to stop - sorry if use was unclear.

The variant on page 121 of UA makes it less likely a character dies. However it thus leads to "faster progression". Essentially, when characters' hit points reach 0 they must make Fort saves (modified by how badly damaged they are) to see if they are disabled, dying or dead. They can end up only disabled, dying (similar to being at -4) and recover (avoiding level loss for return) having taken damage that would kill them in standard D&D.

If you don't tweak some things other aspects of rules don't work as expected. For example, creatures that are "disabled" (reach negative hit points) may remain conscious if they make a Fort save but still fall prone, dropping held items and trigger a "cleave" opportunity. Otherwise, "cleave" feat is nerfed.

Similarly, the variant I use includes that a character whose damage had reached -10, acquires an XP deficit to pay off. It's not that they lose a level, but their experience is diverted to paying off this deficit thus they slow down, just as if they had lost a level and had to earn it back, but without losing the level "in advance".

This keeps death "worse", but also less likely, but also makes sure players still work hard to avoid "being saved from death" by these rules.

Objectives:

- from simulationist perspective, create rules where characters are "hurt, need help, have to be carried to safety" more often;
- from narrativist perspective, create rules where characters don't undergo the "concept violence" of dying so often, out of view that even if they are raised too much of that can feel cheesy;
- from gamist perspective, give a last chance to succeed at some balanced cost, and do not violate the rules in place with respect to cost of taking hp+10 damage.
 
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The_Warlock

Explorer
So, I've been reading through this, and I have to admit that this is something that I have been looking for in a way. As much as I actually do enjoy the occasional dropping of a meteor swarm, or the carefully worded Wish, from both a player and DM viewpoint, I'm on board with the concept of maintaining challenge + randomness that seems to come with the low-mid levels.

When my current campaign completes (I keep saying that, and they keep taking longer to get to the BBEG...oy), my first step is switching to True20. I won't be a pusher, but having read and run it, it gives a baseline that's easier to tweak than the core rules, especially magic, which is in many ways an ad hoc system that was attached to the rest of D&D (which may be why it is such a focus for contention on manipulating the "sweet spot"). I also think it's simplicity and reorganization of skills would be assistive in the broadening concept people are talking about, and, Wulf, it has Conviction, which is an Action Point by any other name.

But I digress...

What I wanted to add to this is, what about changing the die rolling MECHANIC, to better simulate your bell curve?

Instead of...d20 + X to achieve DC, where X can with strong character build can equal or EXCEED 20, even within the "sweet spot", often relegating the d20 to near uselessness, what about setting the Target Number (TN for the rest of this) within the RANGE of the d20?

Here's the concept, and I admit it needs tweaking, but it's the one I've been thinking about a LOT lately, and this thread makes me want to share it, good, bad or indifferent:

There is a TN to succeed...the base TN is set based on the type of action - Untrained Skill Use, Trained Skill Use, Attack/Defend, Magic Use (if you changed from Vancian magic, or made unleashing your spells require a check)...

Let's assume the Hunter's Rule, ie, studies of predator animals and human hunter tribes suggests they succeed in a hunt 1 in 4 times (25%), as a start. I tweak that to 20% as my base for DIFFICULT tasks (like killing dinner on the run, or the orc next door), and I will somewhat arbitrarily set average tasks at 35%. What am I talking about? To succeed at a difficult task, the player needs to roll a 17 or higher on the d20, a 14 or higher for less onerous tasks. These are the Target Numbers. The character SUBTRACTS their appropriate attribute modifier (and possibly racial mods, haven’t decided yet) from the TN, making it easier to hit it. They ADD their skill, or BAB, or what have you to the roll, to get over it. (ie, a thief with a +4 mod from Dex, has TN’s of 13 and 10, respectively, to his Dex based skills).

Seems overly complex, yes? Here's the thing I've been working toward, it doesn’t matter how high over 20 you are, just whether or not you got over your TN. Further more, you are still adding relevant numbers to the roll, so higher is still better and you don’t have to retrain players in that regard. Also, you can now make a sliding scale of quality of success – Hitting the TN is success, and 20 is still a critical success, but in the example of the thief, the RANGE from 13 to 20 is 8, and you can say that if the thief rolls his check and gets a 17 or higher (which is the higher half of the RANGE), he has had some form of Excellent success relevant to the skill or check (more damage, picks lock in less time, etc). Thus, skills get you success, but talent (ie, ability and racial mods, and possibly feats…not sure) get you the effect of an enhanced “mini-crit” range.

The caveat is that you need to slow down the skill progression somewhat, since the 4x at the beginning of a characters life provides a base that would tip the system more than necessary. On the up side, the DM doesn’t have to come up with DCs, but simply modifiers based on the “difficulty” of the check, and tell the player to “subtract 4 from this roll” since it’s moderately difficult, or what have you. In the end, excessive skills will still get you near-auto success, but the player isn't necessarily rewarded for finding a way to jack his total skill mod to +37 and a half, since it's meaningless, but rather rewards them for diversifying.

But that’s the concept in the nutshell. I’m not trying to threadjack, but I wanted to drop this in here simply because from what I’ve been reading, it couldn’t hurt to reconsider the “core mechanic” as an out of the box thought, since the purpose of the discussion is how to alter the –mechanics- to stay “sweet”.

The One Warlock
 

AdmundfortGeographer

Getting lost in fantasy maps
The_One_Warlock said:
Further more, you are still adding relevant numbers to the roll, ...
Except for subtracting ability attribute from the target number. That would involve considerable retraining because ability modifiers are added to rolls through out the rest of the game system.

It would also make ability modifying much more attractive, whether by magic items or by spells, and magic item values would likely need re-valuing.

Also certain other skills would need wholesale rework, like Jump, under this system. The effect upon Epic-level play would certainly need consideration as well with a rework as thorough as this proposal. It is interesting as a thought experiment, I'll say that!
 




X

xnosipjpqmhd

Guest
10 levels in twice the time

This is a test of the idea of stretching out the sweet spot by slowing advancement and giving the equivalent of 1 level worth of carrots in the space of 2 levels. It still has a few dead levels, though.

In the sample table below, I've used ".5" levels in order to ease calculations of EL, APL, etc. XP calculations would remain the same, but at half the usual rate. If the ".5" levels sticks in your craw, feel free to renumber using integers and give out XP at the usual rate.

Barbarian levels 1-10 stretched out to 20 half-levels:

Code:
LVL  HP    BAB     FT RF WL  Skills   SPECIAL
0   d6+Con  +1     +1 +0 +0 (2+Int)x2 Illiteracy, rage 1/day, bonus feat (if human)
1   d6+Con  +1     +2 +0 +0 (2+Int)x2 Fast movement, bonus feat for gaining 1st level
1.5 d6+Con  +2     +2 +0 +0 (2+Int)x2 Uncanny dodge 
2   d6+Con  +2     +3 +0 +0  2+Int    
2.5 d6+Con  +3     +3 +0 +1  2+Int    Trap sense +1 
3   d6+Con  +3     +3 +1 +1  2+Int    Bonus feat for gaining 3rd level 
3.5 d6+Con  +4     +3 +1 +1  2+Int    Rage 2/day 
4   d6+Con  +4     +4 +1 +1  2+Int    +1 to any ability score (for gaining 4th level) 
4.5 d6+Con  +5     +4 +1 +1  2+Int     
5   d6+Con  +5     +5 +1 +1  2+Int    Improved uncanny dodge 
5.5 d6+Con  +6/+1  +5 +1 +2  2+Int    Trap sense +2 
6   d6+Con  +6/+1  +5 +2 +2  2+Int    Bonus feat for gaining 6th level 
6.5 d6+Con  +7/+2  +5 +2 +2  2+Int     
7   d6+Con  +7/+2  +5 +2 +2  2+Int    Damage reduction 1/— 
7.5 d6+Con  +8/+3  +5 +2 +2  2+Int    Rage 3/day 
8   d6+Con  +8/+3  +6 +2 +2  2+Int    +1 to any ability score (for gaining 8th level) 
8.5 d6+Con  +9/+4  +6 +2 +3  2+Int    Trap sense +3 
9   d6+Con  +9/+4  +6 +3 +3  2+Int    Bonus feat for gaining 9th level 
9.5 d6+Con +10/+5  +6 +3 +3  2+Int    
10  d6+Con +10/+5  +7 +3 +3  2+Int    Damage reduction 2/—
What do you think? Is it worth it?
 

X

xnosipjpqmhd

Guest
Sorcerer levels 1-10 in 20 half-levels:

Code:
LVL  HP    BAB FT RF WL  Skills  Spl/day 0 1 2 3 4 5 Spl kwn 0 1 2 3 4 5 SPECIAL 
0   d2+Con  +0 +0 +0 +1 (1+Int)x2        4 2 — — — —         3 1 - - - - Summon familiar, bonus feat (if human)
1   d2+Con  +0 +0 +0 +2 (1+Int)x2        5 3 — — — —         4 2 - - - - Bonus feat for 1st level
1.5 d2+Con  +1 +0 +0 +2 (1+Int)x2        5 4 — — — —         4 2 - - - -
2   d2+Con  +1 +0 +0 +3  1+Int           6 4 — — — —         5 2 - - - -
2.5 d2+Con  +1 +0 +1 +3  1+Int           6 5 — — — —         5 2 - - - -
3   d2+Con  +1 +1 +1 +3  1+Int           6 5 - — — —         5 3 - - - - Bonus feat for 3rd level
3.5 d2+Con  +2 +1 +1 +3  1+Int           6 6 1 — — —         5 3 1 - - -
4   d2+Con  +2 +1 +1 +4  1+Int           6 6 3 — — —         6 3 1 - - - +1 to any ability score for 4th level
4.5 d2+Con  +2 +1 +1 +5  1+Int           6 6 4 — — —         6 4 1 - - -
5   d2+Con  +2 +1 +2 +5  1+Int           6 6 4 — — —         6 4 2 - - -
5.5 d2+Con  +3 +1 +2 +5  1+Int           6 6 5 1 — —         6 4 2 1 - -
6   d2+Con  +3 +1 +2 +5  1+Int           6 6 5 3 — —         7 4 2 1 - - Bonus feat for 6th level
6.5 d2+Con  +3 +2 +2 +5  1+Int           6 6 5 4 — —         7 5 3 1 - -
7   d2+Con  +3 +2 +2 +6  1+Int           6 6 6 4 — —         7 5 3 2 - -
7.5 d2+Con  +4 +2 +2 +6  1+Int           6 6 6 5 1 —         7 5 3 2 1 -
8   d2+Con  +4 +2 +3 +6  1+Int           6 6 6 5 3 —         8 5 3 2 1 - +1 to any ability score for 8th level
8.5 d2+Con  +4 +3 +3 +6  1+Int           6 6 6 6 3 —         8 5 4 3 1
9   d2+Con  +4 +3 +3 +7  1+Int           6 6 6 6 4 —         8 5 4 3 2 - Bonus feat for 9th level
9.5 d2+Con  +5 +3 +3 +7  1+Int           6 6 6 6 4 1         8 5 4 3 2 1
10  d2+Con  +5 +3 +3 +7  1+Int           6 6 6 6 5 3         9 5 4 3 2 1
 

X

xnosipjpqmhd

Guest
Note on figuring level-ups in ".5" level system

To reach the next level, you need to acquire an additional 1,000 xp times that level. Thus under the proposed ".5" level system, the level breaks would be (1) 1000, (1.5) 2500, (2) 4500, (2.5) 7000, (3) 10000, etc.

You could, of course, use the std XP chart, but the above keeps things tied to the level numbers.
 

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