[D&D Design Discussion] Preserving the "Sweet Spot"

[Wulf Ratbane]

Just throwing this out there: a part of the difficulty with some of these spells (i.e. teleport, raise dead, commune, and plane shift) is that they extend the use of magic beyond the short range, tactical (i.e. combat or combat related) to regional/world/multiverse, which eventually defines the game. A fighter or rogue at 20th level is still affecting his or her immediate area and has abilities relatively easy understand and adjudicate (although with some number creep), vs. a high level caster, which (with the enormous variety of spells and their game defining effects) defines what kind of adventures can be run, how they are run, how the party travels, what happens when they die, etc.

That's a really good observation!

 

[Baron Opal]

According to WOTC research, most D&D campaigns don't last for more than 20 sessions. Capping level advancement at 10th level makes sense in this regard. Most campaigns, assuming they start with 1st-level characters, never reach levels 11-20 anyway.

Yes, but levels 11+ are where I want to play. The fondest memories I have of gaming are when I was running a 1e game at around 12th level and again at 16th+ level. I enjoy the aspects of higher level play. My frustrations come in when I have difficulty in ajudicating combats and other things when my PCs are only at 6th level in 3e. Part of the problem is that I'm 20 years older and I don't know the rules of 3e forward and back like I did 1e.

 

[Lanefan]

Re Planeshift:

Uh, how is this a travel spell?

The 5-to-500 miles off-target bit is a 3e addition. 1e does not define it; my game is 1e-based, and it's used there as a travel spell by plane-shifting out from one place to another plane, then back to the desired destination. Sure, it takes 2 castings, but so what.

Lanefan

 

[Kid Charlemagne]

Eliminate immunity to poisons. At higher levels poison is pretty much just a temporary nuisance anyways. So why make it totally useless by allowing immunity. Don't even use a DR type system for poison.

Immunities in general make me twitch. Everything is damned well immune to something, it seems. I'd tune down the immunities to just merely resistances in most cases. I see no reason for a Fire Giant to be utterly immune to Fire, for example. Resistance 20, sure. Maybe even higher. But very few things should truly be immune to stuff.

 

[VirgilCaine]

The only time temples can be invaded/robbed is when holy wars have been declared, passed down from the gods at war themselves. They protect you from the divine curses you would otherwise be hit with.

What prompted this? I guess evil religions are major antagonists in your campaign, then?

 

[Victim]

Just throwing this out there: a part of the difficulty with some of these spells (i.e. teleport, raise dead, commune, and plane shift) is that they extend the use of magic beyond the short range, tactical (i.e. combat or combat related) to regional/world/multiverse, which eventually defines the game. A fighter or rogue at 20th level is still affecting his or her immediate area and has abilities relatively easy understand and adjudicate (although with some number creep), vs. a high level caster, which (with the enormous variety of spells and their game defining effects) defines what kind of adventures can be run, how they are run, how the party travels, what happens when they die, etc.

Is that really true though? Certainly, a high level fighter or rogue generally doesn't have the strategic capability that a caster does. However, I think that high powered "mundane" characters also change the strategic situation. A highly skilled rogue or bard can dig up pretty much any secret, use social skills to amass financial or political power, etc. Having characters able to chew up frontline army units in a standup fight changes adventures almost as much as high end magic.

Spells are just the most egregious offenders.

 

[blargney the second]

If you give the players cool things to spend their XP on, you'll have both your cookies system and something that slows down the rate of level advancement.

-blarg

 

[VirgilCaine]

Re Planeshift:
The 5-to-500 miles off-target bit is a 3e addition. 1e does not define it; my game is 1e-based, and it's used there as a travel spell by plane-shifting out from one place to another plane, then back to the desired destination. Sure, it takes 2 castings, but so what.

Lanefan

So if it doesn't say you can't choose the exact spot you appear, you can?
That's crackheaded.

 

[RangerWickett]

Wulf, are we talking 'redesign the game system' here, or 'change the way we play 3E?'

I don't have much for the latter. For the former, you mentioned the idea of stretching out the powers gained at 10th level so you get them at 20th instead, but still having the same number of nifty upgrades at each new level.

Consider the Book of Nine Swords that just came out. You get new tricks and special attacks at each level. You could add 'teamwork abilities,' which wouldn't be amazing on their own, but if you added them to each class, it could add a lot of depth to gameplay as you level up.

Imagine a hypothetical game that goes from 1st level to 5th.

1st - Young Kid.
You can only really succeed by teamwork, and only against modest threats (like an orc, or a tiny imp). Spellcasters only get mild utility spells, which only shine in niche situations (like levitate small objects, which is seldom better than just picking them up; or creating light, which seldom is better than just using a torch), and can only use them a few times before expending their power.

2nd - Everyday Person.
You're strong enough to handle a modest threat by yourself, or you can work together to handle tougher challenges (like an ogre, or zombies). Spellcasters can use utility spells several times without becoming too strained, and start to be able to actually do things people can't normally do (like levitate themselves, create illusions, or make people resistant to certain attacks), though not often.

3rd - Local Hero.
You're a hero in the eyes of normal people. You're strong enough to take on tough threats by yourself, and as a team you can handle mighty foes (like giants) or magical ones (like elementals). Spellcasters can alter reality (charming minds, shapeshifting, shooting lightning), though doing so strains them.

4th - Famous Bad-Ass.
You're able to kick the ass of creatures that could terrorize a town of normal people. As a team, you're capable of even slaying a dragon or fighting a demon. Spellcasters can alter reality with ease, and when necessary can summon magic with permanent effects (reshaping terrain, traveling in an instant what would normally take weeks of hiking, or seeing the future).

5th - Superhero.
You wrestle dragons bare-handed, casually discuss prophecies like they're everyday affairs, and don't use doors because you can teleport through walls. You still need teamwork to handle the occasional horde of demonic mind flayers, but the warriors can fell hundreds of warriors, and the mages can control time and space, and even bring back the dead.


I'm sure in each of those categories you could have several stages of power. Or even if you didn't, you could just have a wide variety of abilities to get at each level, X of which must be mastered before you can go to the next level. Like in Boy Scouts, when you had to have X merit badges before you could get Tenderfoot, 2nd Class, 1st Class, Star, Life, or Eagle?

 

[Treebore]

What prompted this? I guess evil religions are major antagonists in your campaign, then?

They certainly can be. I generally let the players make a "temple" become their enemy, though. I prefer it when my players set themselves up for death. Besides, I often have "temple wars" going on and off in the background of my campaigns, if they are hanging out in decent sized town/cities.

My campaigns aren't static. It is assumed there are millions of things and events going on around the campaign world that the PC's have nothing to do with. The only way they get any wind of these things is through news and gossip. If they want to get involved in anything they have to decide to look into it.

Otherwise we stick to the module or homebrews story arc. If that means I have an NPC priest ask them to help out a church, that one or two of the PC's belong to, because they are involved in a "holy conflict" with the temple of evilness (insert desired god) and are getting their behinds handed to them, well, thats the fun of a game that takes place in a fluid campaign world.

Stories and adventures just come out of the woodwork on their own. Its another reason I buy so many modules and subscribe to Dungeon magazine. I look at them like reading a newspaper of the news that no one hears about, and decide where it takes place in my campaign world and what other effects it may have.