D&D Has the Biggest Playerbase, So Why is it the Hardest for 3rd Party to Market Too?

[Hussar]

We who [MENTION=6834463]happyhermit[/MENTION]?

I've seen second party publishers referred to quite a number of times, particularly in 3e discussions where you had different "tiers" of publishers - those that were using OGL and those that weren't. How would you describe Paizo's publishing Dungeon and Dragon, if not a second party publisher? Or the Dragonlance stuff that was published during 3e which was certainly not under the umbrella of the OGL.

Granted, there aren't anywhere nears as many 2PP out there. The vast majority publish under the OGL, and thus are 3PP. But, in the context of this discussion - about why it's hard for everyone other than WotC to get noticed in the market - how does labeling consumers as the second party publishers help?

 

[happyhermit]

We who [MENTION=6834463]happyhermit[/MENTION]?

Sorry, I meant the people I know IRL.

I've seen second party publishers referred to quite a number of times, particularly in 3e discussions where you had different "tiers" of publishers - those that were using OGL and those that weren't. How would you describe Paizo's publishing Dungeon and Dragon, if not a second party publisher? Or the Dragonlance stuff that was published during 3e which was certainly not under the umbrella of the OGL.

We always just considered them to be publishing under a license. Even now that I am looking I am having a hard time finding them referred to as second party publishers. Plenty of talk and info about the arrangement but little (I have seen nothing actually) in way of that terminology from the fandom let alone the industry.

Granted, there aren't anywhere nears as many 2PP out there. The vast majority publish under the OGL, and thus are 3PP. But, in the context of this discussion - about why it's hard for everyone other than WotC to get noticed in the market - how does labeling consumers as the second party publishers help?

I wasn't arguing that it did. I was only saying that if someone is declaring the term has come to mean something different in ttrpgs, as it has in video games, and no longer means what it originally did, then there should be considerable evidence to convince me that the way we are using the term is now "wrong". Especially since the way we use it fits with both the origin and general usage.

I don't think labeling consumers the second party is even a slight hindrance to the marketing of ttrpg products though.

 

[delericho]

How would you describe Paizo's publishing Dungeon and Dragon, if not a second party publisher?

As a third-party publisher.

Paizo published Dungeon and Dragon magazines under an official license from WotC. They also published a number of modules and accessories (their "GameMastery" line) under the OGL - which was also an official license from WotC.

 

[MarkB]

We who [MENTION=6834463]happyhermit[/MENTION]?

I've seen second party publishers referred to quite a number of times, particularly in 3e discussions where you had different "tiers" of publishers - those that were using OGL and those that weren't. How would you describe Paizo's publishing Dungeon and Dragon, if not a second party publisher?

Subcontractors.

 

[Morrus]

D&D Has the Biggest Playerbase, So Why is it the Hardest for 3rd Party to Market Too?

I don't think it has in TTRPGs. I have been involved in them for a long time and have never heard of 2nd party publishers.

Me neither. I’ve been a third party publisher for D&D for nearly 20 years.

 

[Rya.Reisender]

I only joined the D&D community with the 5th edition, but I personally just don't see any need for 3rd party content.

Playing out a single official adventure path completely takes me several years, so definitely longer than the release rate of official adventure paths and I would be wondering "Why get something custom 3rd party from someone I never heard about and don't know the quality of, when I could just play something from the actual creators, that's been quality tested, revised, has tons of useful resources online and is executed by thousands other DMs I could ask any time if I need help?"

 

[Morrus]

I only joined the D&D community with the 5th edition, but I personally just don't see any need for 3rd party content.

Playing out a single official adventure path completely takes me several years, so definitely longer than the release rate of official adventure paths and I would be wondering "Why get something custom 3rd party from someone I never heard about and don't know the quality of, when I could just play something from the actual creators, that's been quality tested, revised, has tons of useful resources online and is executed by thousands other DMs I could ask any time if I need help?"

Different people like different things.

 

[delericho]

I only joined the D&D community with the 5th edition, but I personally just don't see any need for 3rd party content.

There's no need for third party support, but then there's no need for first party support - the game got along just fine before Volo, Xanathar, or Mordenkainen wrote their respective guides (and people have been homebrewing adventures forever, so no need for those, either).

Hell, the core rules could probably be trimmed by about 50% and the game would run just fine. (After all, Basic more or less does just that.)

However, none of that means there isn't a benefit in third-party materials being available. The reality is that WotC have a very constrained release schedule, and their target is for every release to reach a very wide audience (100k units sold). That being the case, they're necessarily going to stick fairly firmly to mainstream topics. And that means that if your interests are in more niche areas, you're probably out of luck - it's likely that there will never be anything more than lip service provided to stronghold management, or mass warfare, or aquatic adventures, or most of the settings, or whatever.

So if you're particularly interested in running an undersea campaign (for whatever reason), it's unlikely you'll ever see much if any first-party support. But you might well see someone do a third-party book... and that book may well be the very thing you need to get you up and running.

 

[Jester David]

I think you are right about the adventures don't sell thing. Quality ones do and several of them are biggest selling D&D items of all time. Most of them were Gygax ones though.

Adventures are probably diminishing returns though I suspect that once you have a few you don't need more.

I think all D&D products suffer from diminishing returns. You only need so many adventures, but you also only need so many new subclasses and races.
They sell better at first, but I think crunch dropoff is steeper than adventures, as they're good for multiple campaigns and you can re-use subclasses (as different people play them) and even late in an edition a really cool adventure might sell well. The trick is avoiding competition with adventures in print.

The problem with every RPG is sustaining it for multiple years with continual new products.

 

[Aldarc]

Going back to the original topic, I would note that some of the biggest success with 3pp have been those products that exist in connection to D&D Streamers and YouTubers Video Bloggers. These products are essentially being marketed by online personalities.

What's interesting, IMHO, is not necessarily how this shift affects 3pp for D&D, but how the growing recognition that "streaming sells" has on the 1st Party Publishers themselves. We are even seeing this with D&D/WotC pulling Critical Role into their sphere and the cooperative cross-promotion that takes place therein. Monte Cook Games is also now running play streams of their products. John Harper has done the same for Blades in the Dark. So a lot of the promotion and marketing of products by publishers, whether industry giants like D&D or indie niche games like Numenera and Blades in the Dark, are increasingly being done through online play and streaming.

It may be beneficial for 3rd party publishers to recognize this growing shift if they too are hoping to carve a niche out there.