D&D lovers who hate Vancian magic

[Dannyalcatraz]

This thread has made me curious: http://www.enworld.org/forum/new-horizons/316128-5e-vance-not-vance-question.html

I personally see Vancian magic as one of D&D's defining features, something that sets it apart from other FRPGs. Something that adds to its unique character.

Not everyone feels likewise, I know. Lovers of Vancian magic may even be in the minority of D&D players at this point.

So for those who really despise Vancian magic as much as some clearly do, I have to ask: What is it about D&D that attracted you to the game?

(Please: This isn't about discussing the merits or deficiencies of Vancian magic, this is about the OTHER aspects of D&D that led people to overcome their dislike of it to play and enjoy the game.)

 

[Aldarc]

If Vancian Magic is the only thing worth attracting people to D&D, then D&D is hardly worth playing.

Edit: Really this thread comes across as "I don't understand why people don't like what I like."

 

[TheAuldGrump]

Bear in mind that when I started playing the only choice was D&D.

I wanted to play a wizard, and Vancian magic was what was there, so Vancian magic was what I used to play Stormraven.

I got to play him for three sessions, then we gave our DM the boot, and I ran the game for three years. (We had a really, really bad DM, who was somehow amazed when we gave both him and his best friend a choice of letting us play our own characters or getting the heck out of Dodge. He called us on it, and ended up getting the heck out of Dodge.)

The Auld Grump

 

[Jack7]

I neither love it nor hate it. I think of it as a system, like any other. It has some very enjoyable parts but some severe weaknesses and I gave up using it a long time ago. Not for the way magic operates in later or in other systems but with one I created on my own.

However I thought it was perfectly suited to AD&D. It just felt very right for that gaming system.

As to what led me to playing D&D, well, at that time it was almost the only game in town. And to me it was the very first RPG magic system I really encountered. And as I've already said it felt very right to me in that system. It all worked together as a whole.

I liked the class system, even though I gave that up too, and I liked the overall adventuring system. You gotta remember, when I started, it was almost the only thing around. So, what wasn't to like? It was novel.

And from the start to me it was just a game. To tell the truth I've never understood the, "well, this is the way the game is written so you must play it this way." I can understand that with chess. Even some war.

I never understood it with D&D. To me inherent in the very idea of the Role Play Game is the idea of personal and interactive modification. The game attracted me to the game, the thought that individual elements had to be this way or that way never occurred to me just because some designer, no matter who he was, said so.

It was "my way." That was what made D&D unique and interesting to me. The fantasy element was nice. Magic was interesting. The wargaming elements were fun. The role playing was exciting and novel. the social aspects were alluring. But the idea that you could remake the game, rules, setting, characters, monsters, etc as you wished, and restructure it to taste, that was a really great leap in game design that I think a lot of younger people completely overlook cause they're used to the idea now. It's ubiquitous now in video and computer gaming design, at least. And with internet games. Personalization, modification, and interactive individualization. Back then though that was a very novel and revolutionary concept in game design. In everything, including game design. Unfortunately I am afraid it has become a novel concept all over again, as modern Gamers and Geeks are often far more interested in learning and mastering rule and structure systems than redesigning and recreating them. Absorption has replaced experimentation as the "rule du jour." A shame, but that's the way it is. But it wasn't that way back then at all. Back then it was the end user and games like D&D at the very Frontier of Imaginative Recreation. Gygax and his cohorts deserve a lot of credit for the idea because it was a very prophetic statements about modern society and technology even before the real current age of modern technology.

That was the real revolutionary idea behind it to me. It presaged the "end user personal modification" idea of product design to me.

How it later became the game of rule lawyering I never understood. To me that very idea was antithetical and anathema to the original design concept. But it just goes to show ya, things often become what they are not even when they shouldn't. Just give it enough time.

On the other hand give it enough time and things finish where they start, and sometimes even improve some as a result of having taken the trip. So, here's to progress.

Bear in mind that when I started playing the only choice was D&D.

Same here, obviously.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Bear in mind that when I started playing the only choice was D&D.

Same here, obviously.

Myself likewise.

 

[Rechan]

What is it about D&D that attracted you to the game?

It was the only game in town.

NOT that other games didn't exist, but that D&D is the gateway RPG: everyone's heard of it, and anyone who's played and RPG is at least familiar with it. I have always had a problem of finding a group/players, so it was D&D or no.

I had maybe played three scattered sessions of 2e AD&D until 3.0 came out, and I finally said "that's it", and became a DM for an online group over a text medium.

There are many games I would love to play, but getting people to try indie games is tough when you have trouble finding anyone to play D&D.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

If Vancian Magic is the only thing worth attracting people to D&D, then D&D is hardly worth playing.

Edit: Really this thread comes across as "I don't understand why people don't like what I like."

There have been many threads on ENWorld posted by people who profoundly dislike some element of D&D and ask about how to change it. When others point out there are games that do exactly what it is they want to change D&D to, they are happy.

Vancian magic seems different. Despite there being many FRPGs that have non-Vancian casting that are also quite excellent games, there is still a large and vocal portion of the D&D-playing community that utterly loathe Vancian casting. Hate it to the point that they want to see it eradicated from the game entirely (see the thread I linked to in my OP).

So I'm curious about what it is that keeps those people playing D&D when there are excellent FRPGs that don't contain that offending element.

This isn't about "I don't understand why people don't like what I like" because, while I love Vancian casting in D&D, I also love other FRPGs that don't use it at all. Hell- my favorite RPG system is HERO.

 

[Ahnehnois]

So for those who really despise Vancian magic as much as some clearly do, I have to ask: What is it about D&D that attracted you to the game?

I started briefly with 2e. The only character I remember playing was a psionicist. I liked that I could do things spontaneously, without the complexity or illogic of magic.

My first 3e character was a sorcerer. I kind of liked spontaneous casting, but I really liked that as a halfling, he could take Hide and Move Silently and sneak around almost as well as a rogue.

The mentality I thought was great about the skill system was something a law professor of mine would say when asked whether it was possible or not to do something under the law, "You can try."

I'd like to see the same principle applied to magic.

***

Speaking more broadly, my experience with 3e and its magic system is that my players, while reasonably knowledgeable and engaged, do not like playing spellcasters. They prefer to have abilities that always work, not just X times per day, and they don't like having to pick through so many books to find spells after already having done so for classes and feats (to say nothing of the trouble of referencing them during play). Most of our memorable characters are fighters, rangers, and rogues. Rogue has always been my favorite class for the flexibility.

When I started using Unearthed Arcana and doing other houserules, spell points seemed a natural to simplify things. I later changed the spells known/memorized lists to one flat number (your wizard can memorize ten spells of any level), stealing from the XPH. If I had my way, I'd scrap the whole thing and start over with something more flavorful and balanced.

To sum up, I like lots of things about D&D, but Vancian casting was never one of them.

 

[Aldarc]

There have been many threads on ENWorld posted by people who profoundly dislike some element of D&D and ask about how to change it. When others point out there are games that do exactly what it is they want to change D&D to, they are happy.

Vancian magic seems different. Despite there being many FRPGs that have non-Vancian casting that are also quite excellent games, there is still a large and vocal portion of the D&D-playing community that utterly loathe Vancian casting. Hate it to the point that they want to see it eradicated from the game entirely (see the thread I linked to in my OP).

So I'm curious about what it is that keeps those people playing D&D when there are excellent FRPGs that don't contain that offending element.

This isn't about "I don't understand why people don't like what I like" because, while I love Vancian casting in D&D, I also love other FRPGs that don't use it at all. Hell- my favorite RPG system is HERO.

This sound dangerously close to the mentality of "If you don't like Vancian magic, play another system." People disagree with Vancian magic precisely because people disagree with what magic should be in a game. People can still love the overall D&D system (whatever the iteration) without liking Vancian magic. There are other systems with arguably better magic systems, but they have their own problems unique to their system. It's certainly not an all or nothing when it comes to Vancian magic, as getting rid of it is not tantamount to throwing the baby out with the bathwater. I keep playing D&D because Vancian magic is not the entirety of D&D. Let's rephrase your proposition: Is Vancian magic the only reason to play D&D?

 

[Jack7]

The mentality I thought was great about the skill system was something a law professor of mine would say when asked whether it was possible or not to do something under the law, "You can try."

I'd like to see the same principle applied to magic.

Good points I think. Experimentation is the Royal Road to achievement.

But 2nd Edition is the only edition I never tried. I gave up D&D after High School and early college, then never returned til I was in my thirties and 3rd Edition was out.

Did 2nd edition have a Sorcerer?