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D&D lovers who hate Vancian magic

Banshee16

First Post
The fifteen minute adventuring day is an issue caused by the pacing of adventures not being fast enough. Because to be fast enough, the pacing would have to be about that of Jack Bauer in 24. 1e had its solution to the 15 minute day; rolling for wandering monsters every ten minutes. Sleeping for 8 hours in a dungeon would therefore require 48 wandering monster rolls. Not gonna happen.

But once you get out of the dungeon, in order to keep the classes balanced you need an average of four fights per day. To put that into perspective that's a fight before breakfast to wake you up, one mid morning, break for lunch, a fight mid afternoon, and one just before dinner. Unless you're a commando unit in hostile territory there needs to be a reason people are wasting people attacking you. And needs to be a ticking clock to prevent you forting up. This massively restricts the narratives that D&D provides strong support to - for instance hexcrawling in the wilderness. What wilderness hex is that dangerous? (Yes, I know people do it. But there's a world of difference between doing something with the rules and being supported by them). Pathfinder's Kingmaker simply encourages a near-Nova pattern for almost all combats if you run it in PF.

I'm not necessarily sure the whole resting encounter cycle is unrealistic. In real-world terms, the U.S. has one of the highest per capita murder rates in the western world. Yet that rate is about 1/40th or 1/50th the murder rate of England in the 1700s. So the world was a more dangerous place back then.

I'm going to assume that if you go back to the 1300's and 1400's, which are more analogous to the time period approximated by D&D, the rates were even higher.

Throw in the addition of monsters, other humanoid species etc. and having regular encounters in the wilderness may not be unrealistic at all.

Banshee
 

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Celebrim

Legend
No it isn't. Point Buy is a mechanical solution to the simulationist problem of Vancian Magic.

I quite agree.

That it resembles nothing...

But on that I disagree completely. As I've pointed out, it also resembles for instance the way spells are composed in Zelazny's 'Amber' stories. And as I've also indicated, it strongly resembles the general feel of any narrative where in the wizardly character has mysterious reasons for not using magic most of the time, even when that reason is not mechanically the same as Vancian.

...not even the works of Jack Vance

And again, I disagree.

and playing a wizard who knows he's going to forget things when he uses them is painful.

I disagree. It is a lot of fun. One of my favorite characters of all time was a wizard. Besides which, this particular spin you've put on the mechanics is unnecessary and in my opinion its something of a misnomer to focus on it, because frankly, the simplistic way you are looking at not only doesn't make sense (explaining your problem) but isn't even fully supported from the D&D text.

The way Vancian casting is explained in my campaign world changes the fluff slightly but not the mechanics at all. Mortals are not themselves sources of power, and have only limited abilty to draw upon magical energies. Indeed, a wizard is unable to draw on more power than it takes to exstantiate a cantrip. For more powerful spells, a mortal must rely upon extensive art and lore. There is a science to magic, and spells must be engineered. To cast a powerful spell, a wizard must not only memorize the spell, but he must go through the rituals required to prepare the spell for casting. He must trickle power into resivores within his being the way water slowly backs up behind a dam. He must build wheels and engines of power, in order to with the small force he can muster leverage greater energies. When he's has finished the incantation from his spell book, the spell has been wound up like a spring and drawn taunt like a bow, needing only the Wizard to perform the short remaining ritual to release the power in a spectacular way. This is why when he casts the spell, he is unable to cast it again. And because preparing and using these spells is physically and mentally taxing, once he's prepared as many as he can, he must rest before he can prepare any more.

This is a tremendous amount of flavor that is far deeper and more interesting of an explanation that the simple 'magic works because the wizards wills it' that forms the majority of explanation in most other mechanical systems. It's an amazing starting point, and while I like the sorcerer class, on the level of how deeply the mechanics interact with the world, the wizard is just miles more interesting of a class. Musty tomes, forbidden lore, ancient libraries, arcane laboratories, and esoteric paraphenalia are all tied in detail to the class through the mechanics in a way that just no other system manages. Moreover, I would point out that the explanation I've just given has been supported in various places in the text by various editions of D&D, and unlike your simplistic explanation that the wizard 'just forgets', it actually explains the observed mechanics. For example, it explains how you can prepare a spell twice and why you an still cast one after having cast the other.

And of course, you can tweak the flavor in other ways without altering the mechanics as well, as suits you. The flavor explanation for the mechanics doesn't have to be perfect. There is no perfect flavor explanation for hit points or armor class either. But an abstract non-literal interpretation works quite well, and is in many cases more than worth it compared to the drawbacks found in more literal systems.

And most people don't find it helps the narrative structure either.

If this were true, then quite frankly, most people are wrong. I don't however believe it is true. I believe that its part of the secret of why D&D looms larger in the story of RPG's than other systems with supposedly more 'realistic' mechanics. Many people always dismiss it as 'nostalgia', but I've come to believe that that is an insufficient and probably insulting answer.

The fifteen minute adventuring day is an issue caused by the pacing of adventures not being fast enough.

No. The 15 minute adventuring day is an issued caused by the pacing being predictable and fully controlled by the players. It is a valid strategic response to any situation where you have ablative defenses and full control over when and where the encounter takes place. Hit points themselves are enough to cause the 15 minute adventuring day regardless of the spell system in use (which is why some others have identified it as a problem of Vancian divine spellcasting). If you have full control over when and where you fight, why ever go into battle with less than full hit points much less spells?

Any time the PC's don't have full control over when and where the encounters take place, you don't see 15 minute adventuring days, and frankly, any time that they do have that full control (Tomb of Horrors, for example), then you should see the 15 minute adventuring day as the logical response.

It's not a question of the pacing. It's a question of whether things happen in the PC's absence. It's a question of whether the PC's enemies are proactive and also recover defenses in the absence of pressure by the PC's. It's a question of whether the PC's can always safely retreat to a haven whenever they want. If the PC's can't retreat to a haven at any time, if the PC's enemies are proactive and intelligent, if the PC's enemies recover during oppurtunities to rest, and if the PC's enemies engage in plans of their own and cause things to happen even when the PC's are resting, then you don't see 15 minute adventuring days. And contrary to your assertions, that's a lot of room for different narratives, and indeed probably covers the majority of source material that you'd draw inspiration from. The Ring Quest in LotR doesn't have the pacing of 24, but the adventurers also don't have unlimited oppurtunity to rest. Not only are they on a clock (albiet, one much slower than 24), but they have enemies who are actively seeking them out.

If it is not a valid strategic response to the problems that they are presented with, the players will gravitate away from the 15 minute day. And if you always present your players with things that force the 15 minute day as the optimal response, then don't be surprised if that is what you get (or wand of CLW abuse, as others have pointed out).

1e had its solution to the 15 minute day; rolling for wandering monsters every ten minutes.

I don't recall a fixed and universal schedule of when wandering monsters would show up. Rolling every 10 minutes is something that normally occurs only when the in certain high traffic areas specified by the text or when the PC's are doing something that actively draws attention to them. If camped in the dungeon in a location unknown to intelligent creatures, then I usually rolled twice a night. If of course the location was known or could be ascertained or inferred, then the intelligent creatures would plan an ambush or assualt as they best could - or would simply take the oppurtunity to grab as much loot as possible and flee in the night.

But once you get out of the dungeon, in order to keep the classes balanced you need an average of four fights per day.

This for example was roughly the expectation I remember in earlier editions for travel in the wilderness - one wandering encounter check every 6-8 hours.

Unless you're a commando unit in hostile territory...

Funny you should say that, but that's pretty much exactly a description of D&D's default assumption about play and in fact well describes certain classic campaigns and adventures (Dragonlance, Red Hand of Doom, Keep on the Borderlands, etc.). Let me ask you this question, if you aren't in hostile territory, why should we really be worried about this at all? If the PC's aren't in hostile territory, what is the likelihood that the ECL of a challenge is suffiicent to draw down all of their resources anyway? In non-hostile areas you are highly unlikely to see 15 minute adventuring days anyway, because the PC's will simply press on (especially if they know on a meta level that the likelihood of another encounter is remote). I mean, I presume that the adventures are going somewhere and doing something, and if they aren't, isn't that the real problem?
 
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innerdude

Legend
More and more I'm beginning to think that the answer lies in the direction many have already pointed: Make spells below a certain level "combat cast-able," and make spells above a certain level rituals.

And have a real, viable economy of control (whether through tangible resources, scarcity, whatever) on how and when spells are available.

Personally, I think I'd be more okay with classic D&D-ian casting if they simply made it so that it wasn't 100%, guaranteed that the spell would cast at all. I realize that changes balance issues, and would require re-working the math behind saving throws, but I think it makes the choice to be a caster in the first place more narratively interesting.

"Sure, go for the flash and whiz-bangery, kid. I'll stick with my sword, a good shield, and good ground beneath my feet."
 
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Gentlegamer

Adventurer
Musty tomes, forbidden lore, ancient libraries, arcane laboratories, and esoteric paraphenalia are all tied in detail to the class through the mechanics in a way that just no other system manages.
*nods*

In order to obtain greater spell capabilities, the spell-caster must do considerable studying, and he or she must also have source material to study. The AD&D system assumes that such material is hard to come by, and even if a spell-caster is capable of knowing/memorizing many and high-level spells, he or she must find them . . . Thus, the system is in some ways more "Vancian," as detailed, in the works of that author. It might also be said that the system takes on "Lovecraftian" overtones, harkening to tomes of arcane and dread lore. [emphasis mine]

Gary Gygax, The Dragon #33, January 1980​

I'd say the synthesis of Vance, Camp & Pratt, and Lovecraft is a pretty good inspirational soup for D&D magic, full of flavor and workable game mechanics.
 

Celebrim

Legend
More and more I'm beginning to think that the answer lies in the direction many have already pointed: Make spells below a certain level "combat cast-able," and make spells above a certain level rituals.

D&D's fluff has always implied that in addition to the well described spells in the text, there are innumerable rituals of a specific and esoteric nature requiring casting times far too lengthy to be useful to the average PC. However, as yet I've never seen a system for these rituals that inspires me. I've wanted one for 20 years now, and never had the time to set down and create my own. Fourth editions attempt to turn ordinary spells into rituals wasn't what I was looking for in such a system.

I had ambitions at one time to do a three part set of pdf's specifically on all the other aspects of being a wizard not normally covered by the rules, but then I had kids, got a real job, started campaigns, etc. It's a lot of work to create publishable material. Much respect to those that do a good job of it.

Personally, I think I'd be more okay with classic D&D-ian casting if they simply made it so that it wasn't 100%, guaranteed that the spell would cast at all.


They used to be a lot harder to get off with a casting time in segments and a requirement that you not move or defend yourself while casting.
 

Okay, assuming you're right and you know what most people want, let's do that. Pandering to the lowest common denominator is widely recognised as being the smartest thing to do and usually leads to the best of everything.

I don't like spell point systems - they feel far too controlled for most fictional magic to me. My preference is for a mix of aspected magic and random success where you can do a lot with a little range.

This is so not the case, I could write an essay on it. It's not - just not - rest or be attacked. Is that really the sum of options to occupy people you can consider? (I'm sure it isn't, by the way.)

Of course not. You just have the problem of the 3.X fighter but that's a whole different kettle of fish.

Completely agree. I think your next point about the wizard in a library is lovely but it doesn't solve the divine caster issue and I think there is still an issue there. Eight hours in a temple or at a shrine, maybe?

Yup. 8 hours at a temple goes with the 8 at a library.

I'm not necessarily sure the whole resting encounter cycle is unrealistic. In real-world terms, the U.S. has one of the highest per capita murder rates in the western world. Yet that rate is about 1/40th or 1/50th the murder rate of England in the 1700s. So the world was a more dangerous place back then.

Let's run the numbers. Assume that each of the four fights per day is against one creature of medium size or larger. Assume that the battle is to the death and the PCs win. Assume an adventuring party of 4. This means that each PC on average kills one person per day - or 365 people per year.

Further assume each adult woman has one child per year. In that one year, assuming that no one else dies to anything other than trying to fight a PC, the 4 PCs kill enough people that an entire villiage of 700 dies to nothing but PCs.

The middle ages were more violent. But not that much more violent. (The big problem comes in when you have Goblin Den-Mothers whelping a dozen to a litter).

And as I've also indicated, it strongly resembles the general feel of any narrative where in the wizardly character has mysterious reasons for not using magic most of the time, even when that reason is not mechanically the same as Vancian.

This is the case if and only if you take the classic wizard class out behind the woodshed, shoot it, burn the body, then bury the ashes under a crossroads mixed into a block of cement. In the whole of Lord of The Rings Gandalf casts maybe half a dozen spells. I think the number's far lower. A third level wizard gets to do that in 2 days in AD&D. And when you're up to seven spells in a day (i.e. 5th level AD&D wizard) you have so much casting you're making these wizards you claim to emulate look like pikers.

Replace the wizard class with something more like the 2e or 3.5 Bard class - something that's simultaneously a loremaster, able to swing a blade, and can cast a few spells, and has trickery and you're a lot closer to Gandalf, Merlin, or any restricted magic caster than the Vancian wizards have ever been. The argument you're making for Vancian wizards in terms of narrative pacing is one that applies in a low magic world. The wizard class belongs to a high magic world.

I wouldn't object to Vancian casting with spell memorisation for 4e daily powers. (For that matter I wouldn't object to a 4e class that got Wizard dailies and Bardic or even Martial everything else and Vancian casting). But the benefits you see in Vancian casting are as you yourself say "resembles the general feel of any narrative where in the wizardly character has mysterious reasons for not using magic most of the time". This would be true if the wizard brought a lot to the table other than spellcasting. He isn't a loremaster or a bard or able to wave a sword around.

No. The 15 minute adventuring day is an issued caused by the pacing being predictable and fully controlled by the players. It is a valid strategic response to any situation where you have ablative defenses and full control over when and where the encounter takes place.

Which is exactly the point I was making :)

It's not a question of the pacing. It's a question of whether things happen in the PC's absence.

And now I see where I caused the confusion. I meant the in world pacing.

The Ring Quest in LotR doesn't have the pacing of 24, but the adventurers also don't have unlimited oppurtunity to rest. Not only are they on a clock (albiet, one much slower than 24), but they have enemies who are actively seeking them out.

Other than Moria, 8 hour rests don't seem to be a special problem for them. They do that once per night. On the other hand if you move them to a pattern where the extended rests happen at Tom Bombadil's, Rivendell, and Lothlorien then things fit a lot better.

Let me ask you this question, if you aren't in hostile territory, why should we really be worried about this at all? If the PC's aren't in hostile territory, what is the likelihood that the ECL of a challenge is suffiicent to draw down all of their resources anyway?

IMO quite a bit higher than in hostile areas. In hostile areas the PCs may meet wandering patrols. In friendly ones, above low levels anyone attacking the PCs knows who they are and is likely to be loaded for bear. Of course the likelihood of meeting a high ECL combat challenge on any given day is pretty low.
 

Aldarc

Legend
Because high level spells in D&D tend to be significantly more advantageous than two lower level spells, which would encourage you to spend all or most of your points on high level spells.

-snip-
Again, this is part of the risk of the budgeting strategy of mana point systems. Smart players keep spell points in reserve or eventually learn to better budget their spell points. Most of my spell point-playing mages got the idea quite quickly. If this is not enough and want to mechanically encourage players to use lower point spells, there are ways around this, such as caster thresholds.

Besides which, the Vancian system has some arcane depth to it that I think adds significantly to flavor. It suggests to me that spellcasting is more of an art (or a science) than mere innate power. Granted, the more you are going for innate power, the further you'll probably move away from it, but I like my Wizards as scholars and loremasters.
Why can't mana points be a maths, an art, and an innate power? It's calculations on the fly to sculpt or paint a solution based on available resources. Vancian magic could just as easily remind someone not so much of maths or sciences but just rote memorization for class exams, which is not proper studying or learning at all, though I suppose that's just as easily forgotten as any Vancian spell.

Okay, assuming you're right and you know what most people want, let's do that. Pandering to the lowest common denominator is widely recognised as being the smartest thing to do and usually leads to the best of everything.
No need to be snarky. Isn't this, however, the goal of D&D Next? To appeal to the lowest common denominator that unites D&D? Yet this "pandering" is being hailed by grognards, as they see this as the "return" of Vancian magic. I suppose pandering is only "pandering" when it's aimed at denominator you don't hold in common.
 

Ranes

Adventurer
No need to be snarky. Isn't this, however, the goal of D&D Next? To appeal to the lowest common denominator that unites D&D? Yet this "pandering" is being hailed by grognards, as they see this as the "return" of Vancian magic. I suppose pandering is only "pandering" when it's aimed at denominator you don't hold in common.

One person's idea of pandering may indeed differ to another's, so your supposition can be correct.

However, I don't agree that the idea of trying to take 'the best of' (define that how you will) is necessarily pandering to - appealing to, if you prefer - the lowest common denominator. Let's say, just for the sake of argument, that most D&D players want to see the back of Vancian magic in the next edition, because there are better systems out there (I'm not saying there aren't, incidentally). In this case, to go ahead and get rid of Vancian casting would be to appeal to the lowest common denominator. To keep it, in spite of there being a majority more comfortable with mana pools or some other device, would be doing the opposite.

About snarkiness: when I encounter assumption masquerading as fact, I reserve the right release a snark. It doesn't bite. After all, it's only an imaginary animal.
 

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