D&D, Traveller, and GURPS-- designs contrasted

[riprock]

If I had to sum up the flavor of D&D to me, I think I would say it is an Alice-in-Wonderland story of mystery and danger, with lots of close-ups on specific scenes.

Similarly, Traveller is a wide-ranging view of a space empire that emphasizes application of general formulas.

GURPS is a fact-based, customizable system to do any kind of story, especially useful for correctly implementing visions that you saw being done badly by someone else.

D&D's worldview is grounded in long lists of specific effects -- especially quirky spells and magic items -- which cannot be unambiguously analyzed or compared. D&D depends heavily on the imagination and judgement of the DM. D&D requires hundreds of pages of specific (and rather baroque) descriptions, and five kinds of dice, four of which are not always available. Personally I find D&D inspiring to the point of intoxication, even though I can find flaws with it.

Traveller gives you a few snippets of military jargon, some very elegant algebraic formulas, and some tables. From that terse description, you have a completely general analysis of the system dynamics of alien life forms, starship designs, interstellar trade, and (of course) ship-to-ship and man-to-man combat. All the core rules in the "little black books" combined would probably take fewer words than the AD&D Player's Handbook. Only normal, readily available dice are used. Whereas D&D is a sequence of highly detailed dioramas, Traveller is like a blueprint -- beautiful in its way, but with very few details, and certainly nothing rococo. Personally I find Traveller inspiring to the point of intoxication, even though I can find flaws with it.

GURPS is certainly solidly based in elegant wargame designs and responsibly researched facts. It does not require judgement or imagination. I should love it. I should know its rules well. I've played it only seldom. I admire it but I don't love it. Perhaps it offers so many choices, so many clearly demarcated options, that I never really figured out what it meant to me. Yet I can't find any flaws in it. [Edit: Possibly I just haven't played it enough to find the rough spots.] It is argued very convincingly. I can't find anything objectionable about it -- and yet I don't play it, I don't run it, I don't brood nostalgically over it. It doesn't inspire me.

 

[Philotomy Jurament]

I agree with you about D&D. I'm especially fond of the classic version (B/X or BECMI/RC). 2E is my least favorite.

I've never played Traveller, but wouldn't mind trying it, at some point. (I've played Traveller:2300, but I don't think that would count.)

I agree with you about GURPS, too. I've played it (although I've never run it). It just didn't grab me. However, like everyone else, I think the GURPS supplements are often excellent, even if you don't run GURPS. I need to pick up the Book of the New Sun supplement (I'm a big Gene Wolfe fan).

 

[riprock]

I agree with you about D&D. I'm especially fond of the classic version (B/X or BECMI/RC). 2E is my least favorite.

I've never played Traveller, but wouldn't mind trying it, at some point. (I've played Traveller:2300, but I don't think that would count.)

I agree with you about GURPS, too. I've played it (although I've never run it). It just didn't grab me. However, like everyone else, I think the GURPS supplements are often excellent, even if you don't run GURPS. I need to pick up the Book of the New Sun supplement (I'm a big Gene Wolfe fan).

Yeah, I keep coming back to Basic/Expert and AD&D.

You're right, Classic Traveller is very different from the later editions.

I'm looking at GURPS Steampunk right now. The main writer was apparently a science editor, and his book does indeed stimulate me to research history of science, but somehow I have trouble seeing where to get a game out of all of it.

I guess the secret of using GURPS supplements is to pick ones that will work for your group.

 

[Philotomy Jurament]

Yeah, I keep coming back to Basic/Expert and AD&D.

I'm running a C&C game, now; I like the system because it feels like D&D and cherry-picks from the various versions to put together what's almost a "best of" version, IMO.

You're right, Classic Traveller is very different from the later editions.

I've never been really big into sci-fi gaming. I played Star Frontiers, back when it came out (always as a player, though). I ran a brief Ringworld (Chaosium) game, which was pretty fun. I also tried Space Opera and SpaceMaster, but neither game ever took off with our group. Then there was Traveller:2300. And GURPS:Space. I guess I've tried quite a few, but none of them stuck.

 

[jmucchiello]

The problem here is that Traveller and GURPS share the same level of combat deadliness. You do not want to get into a fight in these systems as there is a good chance you will die or be greviously injured. D&D combat isn't deadly unless it lasts too long. Rarely is a character one shotted in D&D (beyond 3rd or 4th level anyway).

Traveller is practically rules light with a gritty view of the world. GURPS strives to simulate reality and is therefore dangerous when violent. D&D is abstract and permanent consequences of violence are rare.

D&D also has the most quantified reward system. XPs and GPs are fine grained and given out in large numbers. Levels are there to win. GURPS and traveller are stingy in rewarding and advancing the character.

It is the reward system and adherance to realism that truly delineates these three systems. (I'm only familiar with Classic Traveller (glances are envelope full of little game booklets) and GURPS 3e.)

 

[Hussar]

D&D requires hundreds of pages of specific (and rather baroque) descriptions, and five kinds of dice, four of which are not always available.

Just as a point, which version of D&D are you referring to? I am thinking of Quasqueton's thread about the different descriptions of the light spell. I would think that the Basic DnD and the 3e DnD versions of the light spell are very simple and hardly baroque while 1e and 2e are much more wordy.

I'm not trying to nit pick here, I'm just wondering which specific versions you refer to. All three systems have a pretty long history (unfortunately, I am totally unfamiliar with Traveller beyond a single session or two fifteen years ago) with many changes and revisions. This is a pretty broad brush you're painting with here.

 

[riprock]

The problem here is that Traveller and GURPS share the same level of combat deadliness. You do not want to get into a fight in these systems as there is a good chance you will die or be greviously injured. D&D combat isn't deadly unless it lasts too long. Rarely is a character one shotted in D&D (beyond 3rd or 4th level anyway).

Traveller is practically rules light with a gritty view of the world. GURPS strives to simulate reality and is therefore dangerous when violent. D&D is abstract and permanent consequences of violence are rare.

Traveller definitely does require that you pick your battles and avoid getting forced to a battle that you can't win. It can get very unpleasantly gritty if you run some of the old adventure modules which are about how you live in a world where arbitrary individuals can send you to jail without a trial.

GURPS can be deadly, which can make it somewhat unsuitable for casual entertainment.

D&D also has the most quantified reward system. XPs and GPs are fine grained and given out in large numbers. Levels are there to win. GURPS and traveller are stingy in rewarding and advancing the character.

It is the reward system and adherance to realism that truly delineates these three systems. (I'm only familiar with Classic Traveller (glances are envelope full of little game booklets) and GURPS 3e.)

D&D is definitely the best at attracting players with rewards, which is a big reason why there are a million variants and rip-offs from D&D.

I don't know about GURPS advancement; I didn't play it long enough to get to the "rewards" part of the story.

As for Traveller, it can fall into some of the D&D-style reward tropes. Investigations of starships sometimes turn into dungeon crawls, with encounters leading up to the big boss guarding the safe in the captain's cabin. One adventure basically is designed for characters who have no starship -- by the end of the adventure, they get a free starship.

Classic Traveller does make it nearly impossible to advance your character personally -- with skills and increased health and so on. However, Traveller does let you use external stuff as a reward system -- albeit one that's not fine-grained or easy to control.

E.g. a retired Marine might start out with only the clothes on his back, but adventure up to the point where he has a gun collection, ammunition, and a large amount of cash. Space Merchants measure their accomplishments in money, and nobles in social status. So there are indeed external rewards, but obviously it's not like D&D's level system, where the fact that you're at level x makes you suspect that level x+1 would be even more fun.