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D&D 4E d20 Modern 4E - I want it!
- Thread starter Mustrum_Ridcully
- Start date
Relique du Madde
Adventurer
If John McClane is 30th level... I'd hate to see what level Jack Bauer would be... After all, he has DIED came back to life like 10 minutes later then kicked the ass of like 20 terrorists during the next two hours while bleeding heavily from a sniper's gun shot.Scribble said:Epic: Live Free Die Hard...
Again... Terrorists.. and quasi post apocalyptic NY... This time he's high enough level that he can make a balance check to stay on the wing of a fighter jet as it's crashing... Among other crazy non human seeming stunts... (Plus he has high enough will defense to resist that stupid mac guy...)
Of course... Chuck Norris would still be higher in level.
Thanks Vig,
Now, having seen the preview, I have another book to buy should this new job work out. My bank account is going to hate you.
Seriously though, despite my dislike for skill consolidation, the preview has me really wanting to see more (and, my being a fan of your work doesn't hurt either )
Oh, and I don't know what I did or wrote to deserve special thanks, but it was my pleasure and thanks for the mention.
Now, having seen the preview, I have another book to buy should this new job work out. My bank account is going to hate you.
Seriously though, despite my dislike for skill consolidation, the preview has me really wanting to see more (and, my being a fan of your work doesn't hurt either
)Oh, and I don't know what I did or wrote to deserve special thanks, but it was my pleasure and thanks for the mention.
Vigilance
Explorer
Greg K said:
Everyone who participated in the discussions leading up to the game, either here or on my blog, where I posted mechanics and general book direction almost from day 1, got a mention in the book, because it all helped.
Even if I didn't end up changing my mind, having to defend my decision gave me a firmer grasp on not only what I was doing, but why.
Chuck
PeterWeller
First Post
I think it might be better if the next D20 Modern were more focused and presented with more of an implied setting. I think one of the system's weaknesses is that it tries to be too much to too many. Focusing more on a single implied setting would allow the developers to better tailor the classes and present a more cohesive product. Also, do we need a D20 Modern that covers fantasy and space opera when we have D&D and SWSE?
Now, as to what I think that setting should be. I think it should be a mix up containing elements from the A-Team to the X-Files, a world where mercenaries mix with mystics, fighting corrupt corporations, evil cults and masters of crime. All of this happens in the shadows and the cracks of the world, of course; the fact that Barrack Obama( ) is actually a silver dragon is known to only a few.
Now, as to what I think that setting should be. I think it should be a mix up containing elements from the A-Team to the X-Files, a world where mercenaries mix with mystics, fighting corrupt corporations, evil cults and masters of crime. All of this happens in the shadows and the cracks of the world, of course; the fact that Barrack Obama(
) is actually a silver dragon is known to only a few.Terramotus
First Post
I LOVE d20 Modern, and I've run a full campaign based off of it and d20 Future, a mini-campaign (more like a series of one shots) in a strict Modern game, and then participated as a player in a long-running (around 2 years) supernatural adventure game for d20 Modern. I think it succeeds in its main intent, which is bringing the action-packed D&D feel to a modern setting.
But it has a few problems.
1) The game doesn't fulfill its promise of making any character with the basic classes. They don't have all the super-cool abilities that the advanced classes do, so they're not as exciting, and thus everyone wants to play an advanced class. Except there aren't advanced classes for every archetype, and thus the people who want to play something a little different feel left out.
When the game first came out, I was looking at it and wondering what class combinations made up various action heroes. The answer is usually none - they're all their own advanced classes, most of which aren't actually written for the game.
2) Balance isn't what it could be, especially between supplements. A lot of the classes have abilities which are silly - they grant small bonuses to situations that come up very infrequently in group play, and usually get ignored, unless the character is in a solo game. Or worse, the class never played. A lot of the abilities actually seem like they were designed based on solo action movie characters with little regard to how those abilities play in a group.
Class abilities aren't balanced very well against each other, so that weird situations arise like the Soldier making a better Archaic Weapon Master than the Archaic Weapon Master does. Skills and skill points aren't what you'd expect between classes, and some classes are just plain overpowered (d20 Future, I'm looking at you).
3) Because of the class weirdness, the game is essentially a 10 level game in a 20 level game's body. The lower levels are uninteresting and have the same issues that low level games in D&D have, and all the cool stuff you get cuts out when your advanced class does. The balancing act of FX abilities that they take a while to start and then cut out abruptly when the advanced class is over not only feels like an odd game intrusion into the reality of the game, but it also doesn't work like it should, since most games will probably take place in the pocket where they gain FX abilities every level.
The math on damage dealt and for save DCs is also off because of this, making FX powers too weak or too good, with little room in between.
4) The rules can be a little wonky at times, and it's clear they didn't smooth things over from the transition of D&D to a modern game as much as they should have. Examples: I have to take HOW MANY feats to be able to fire my gun while running? - 4. A chainsaw requires a feat to use properly? Wait, so my bulletproof vest doesn't protect me any more than a leather jacket unless I'm highly trained? These are jarring in a modern game, and don't necessarily make sense in that milieu.
5) Some of the rules just needed more polishing. The Wealth system is a big one here, along with the purchase DCs. A lot of the new tech in Future and Cybertech were also not as well thought out as they could have been (EMP grenades win every fight in the RAW) and/or have really WEIRD purchase DCs (subcutaneous body armor at +8 makes you invincible for relatively cheap).
So, given all this, I'm highly hopeful for a 4th Edition version of d20 Modern. Star Wars Saga addresses a lot of the issues itself, smoothing out the gameplay and actually making the classes interesting archetypes people would want to play, as opposed to weird base classes based on stats, and folding a lot of the Advanced Class type abilities into the talent trees. I very nearly homebrewed my own hybrid, but decided it was too much work.
I'm even more hopeful about 4th Ed's rules taking that a step even farther. The turning of Advanced/Prestige classes into Paragon Paths is nice and eliminates a lot of balance considerations. Modern classes, in my experience, make the differences between characters with nothing to do inside of combat and nothing to do outside of combat even more glaring. Modern classes need to be good at both, and the stated design goal of making all classes have things to do in and out of combat would help a lot.
If they put as much forethought into making a d20 Modern game as they seem to be putting into D&D 4E, I think they can make a good game great, especially because I think modern games are both simpler to design for, and more subtle at the same time, so their past experience will really help refine things. I also think the "power source" orientation fits even better for a modern setting than it does for D&D.
In short, the new class system of 4E could potentially fix problems 1-3 on its own, and more work will fix 4 and 5.
What I'd love to see is a good core rulebook that covers all of the basic modern archetypes in a rock-solid system that needs no supplements to make any common archetypes work, running levels 1-20. This is very doable - SAGA is very close to what I'm thinking of here. Any FX abilities should be saved for their own books as was suggested earlier in the thread - cybertech, psionics, magic, etc - and done well. This means easy to use guidelines for how much FX you want in your game and ways to limit the power level without making the math weird. Heck, they can even do an Epic supplement later on as a supers game. I'd love to see what WotC could do with that, given the success of Mutants and Masterminds, but the, IMO, poor integration of the supers rules to the d20 system.
There's so much potential here. I think that the D&D flair works better for a modern game that runs like a TV show or a movie than any other system out there. I'd love to see the care used on 4E used to polish up d20 Modern, especially since I don't think it's in need of anywhere near as much of a facelift as D&D is.
But it has a few problems.
1) The game doesn't fulfill its promise of making any character with the basic classes. They don't have all the super-cool abilities that the advanced classes do, so they're not as exciting, and thus everyone wants to play an advanced class. Except there aren't advanced classes for every archetype, and thus the people who want to play something a little different feel left out.
When the game first came out, I was looking at it and wondering what class combinations made up various action heroes. The answer is usually none - they're all their own advanced classes, most of which aren't actually written for the game.
2) Balance isn't what it could be, especially between supplements. A lot of the classes have abilities which are silly - they grant small bonuses to situations that come up very infrequently in group play, and usually get ignored, unless the character is in a solo game. Or worse, the class never played. A lot of the abilities actually seem like they were designed based on solo action movie characters with little regard to how those abilities play in a group.
Class abilities aren't balanced very well against each other, so that weird situations arise like the Soldier making a better Archaic Weapon Master than the Archaic Weapon Master does. Skills and skill points aren't what you'd expect between classes, and some classes are just plain overpowered (d20 Future, I'm looking at you).
3) Because of the class weirdness, the game is essentially a 10 level game in a 20 level game's body. The lower levels are uninteresting and have the same issues that low level games in D&D have, and all the cool stuff you get cuts out when your advanced class does. The balancing act of FX abilities that they take a while to start and then cut out abruptly when the advanced class is over not only feels like an odd game intrusion into the reality of the game, but it also doesn't work like it should, since most games will probably take place in the pocket where they gain FX abilities every level.
The math on damage dealt and for save DCs is also off because of this, making FX powers too weak or too good, with little room in between.
4) The rules can be a little wonky at times, and it's clear they didn't smooth things over from the transition of D&D to a modern game as much as they should have. Examples: I have to take HOW MANY feats to be able to fire my gun while running? - 4. A chainsaw requires a feat to use properly? Wait, so my bulletproof vest doesn't protect me any more than a leather jacket unless I'm highly trained? These are jarring in a modern game, and don't necessarily make sense in that milieu.
5) Some of the rules just needed more polishing. The Wealth system is a big one here, along with the purchase DCs. A lot of the new tech in Future and Cybertech were also not as well thought out as they could have been (EMP grenades win every fight in the RAW) and/or have really WEIRD purchase DCs (subcutaneous body armor at +8 makes you invincible for relatively cheap).
So, given all this, I'm highly hopeful for a 4th Edition version of d20 Modern. Star Wars Saga addresses a lot of the issues itself, smoothing out the gameplay and actually making the classes interesting archetypes people would want to play, as opposed to weird base classes based on stats, and folding a lot of the Advanced Class type abilities into the talent trees. I very nearly homebrewed my own hybrid, but decided it was too much work.
I'm even more hopeful about 4th Ed's rules taking that a step even farther. The turning of Advanced/Prestige classes into Paragon Paths is nice and eliminates a lot of balance considerations. Modern classes, in my experience, make the differences between characters with nothing to do inside of combat and nothing to do outside of combat even more glaring. Modern classes need to be good at both, and the stated design goal of making all classes have things to do in and out of combat would help a lot.
If they put as much forethought into making a d20 Modern game as they seem to be putting into D&D 4E, I think they can make a good game great, especially because I think modern games are both simpler to design for, and more subtle at the same time, so their past experience will really help refine things. I also think the "power source" orientation fits even better for a modern setting than it does for D&D.
In short, the new class system of 4E could potentially fix problems 1-3 on its own, and more work will fix 4 and 5.
What I'd love to see is a good core rulebook that covers all of the basic modern archetypes in a rock-solid system that needs no supplements to make any common archetypes work, running levels 1-20. This is very doable - SAGA is very close to what I'm thinking of here. Any FX abilities should be saved for their own books as was suggested earlier in the thread - cybertech, psionics, magic, etc - and done well. This means easy to use guidelines for how much FX you want in your game and ways to limit the power level without making the math weird. Heck, they can even do an Epic supplement later on as a supers game. I'd love to see what WotC could do with that, given the success of Mutants and Masterminds, but the, IMO, poor integration of the supers rules to the d20 system.
There's so much potential here. I think that the D&D flair works better for a modern game that runs like a TV show or a movie than any other system out there. I'd love to see the care used on 4E used to polish up d20 Modern, especially since I don't think it's in need of anywhere near as much of a facelift as D&D is.
Mustrum_Ridcully
Hero
A lot of interesting posts, keep it coming. I hope someone at WotC (or any other game company?) is keeping notes
Wealth System:
I liked the concept of the d20 Modern wealth system, even though it has some flaws. I think the basic idea of abstracting wealth is a good idea, but maybe basing everything on Wealth modifier and Purchase DCs was wrong.
Games like Victoriana or Shadowrun both use concepts like lifestyle/wealthiness. Essentially, some things you can get "for free" if you're in the right lifestyle. For everything else, you need "real" money. Iron Heroes also allows using a "Wealth Point" system, where you can put inyour gold to get points to spent on bribes or building a home. You can also cash in a wealth point to gain gold back.
A combination of the d20 Modern Wealth system and the LifeStyle/Wealth Point approach might work best to "model" the nature of modern world money.
Such an approach would also have the advantage of everything having hard money values, so something hating any abstract wealth system with all his heart could ignore it.
Classes:
The d20 Modern classes definitely where not balanced in combat, but on the range of an "average" adventure - some where good at combat, others where better for investigations and diplomancy. D&D 4 is going away from this approach and aims to balance everything in one niche - combat. A 4E d20 Modern might need to go further here and balance not only combat, but also other niches, like investigations, social encounters and travel (though maybe that is already done in 4E D&D? I have my doubts ).
It's difficult to pull this off in the other niches (and it might prove impossible), since just as in combat, you need to identify different roles so that different characters feel "fit" for the task. A problem of these niches is that, unlike in combat, people often don't engage in these stuff as a team and this leads to only one player getting "all the fun" at a time. I don't know wether that's an artifact of the game (since only one character is good at each niche), or if it is inevitable. if the latter, the best a new game can do is to explain this probem and provide tips to remove the one-sided nature of these situations.
Wealth System:
I liked the concept of the d20 Modern wealth system, even though it has some flaws. I think the basic idea of abstracting wealth is a good idea, but maybe basing everything on Wealth modifier and Purchase DCs was wrong.
Games like Victoriana or Shadowrun both use concepts like lifestyle/wealthiness. Essentially, some things you can get "for free" if you're in the right lifestyle. For everything else, you need "real" money. Iron Heroes also allows using a "Wealth Point" system, where you can put inyour gold to get points to spent on bribes or building a home. You can also cash in a wealth point to gain gold back.
A combination of the d20 Modern Wealth system and the LifeStyle/Wealth Point approach might work best to "model" the nature of modern world money.
Such an approach would also have the advantage of everything having hard money values, so something hating any abstract wealth system with all his heart could ignore it.
Classes:
The d20 Modern classes definitely where not balanced in combat, but on the range of an "average" adventure - some where good at combat, others where better for investigations and diplomancy. D&D 4 is going away from this approach and aims to balance everything in one niche - combat. A 4E d20 Modern might need to go further here and balance not only combat, but also other niches, like investigations, social encounters and travel (though maybe that is already done in 4E D&D? I have my doubts
). It's difficult to pull this off in the other niches (and it might prove impossible), since just as in combat, you need to identify different roles so that different characters feel "fit" for the task. A problem of these niches is that, unlike in combat, people often don't engage in these stuff as a team and this leads to only one player getting "all the fun" at a time. I don't know wether that's an artifact of the game (since only one character is good at each niche), or if it is inevitable. if the latter, the best a new game can do is to explain this probem and provide tips to remove the one-sided nature of these situations.
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