d6 the future of d20?

[AIM-54]

I was tooling around on dumpshock earlier today and saw something that suggested the major difference is that in d6 all tests were open ended (ie roll a 6 and keep rolling), while in SR most situations require a roll against a target number that is ten or less. I can't remember if it was here or over there, but I saw something about Star Wars TNs sometimes being up around 15 or 20 for medium-hard tasks. Shadowrun also has no situations where you roll your d6 and then add a modifier. All modifiers are taken into account before determining the target number and the necessary number of dice (based on skill and possibly a part of a dice pool if it is a combat/rigging/decking situation) are rolled against that target number.

I've never played the d6 system, but I can say that the Shadowrun system is among the most elegant I've ever played and is my choice of systems(on those occasions I get one, at any rate :\ ).

But it doesn't work for heroic fantasy (we experimented with that a few years back and it was terrible), but it does have the best magic system I've ever seen. IMO, of course.

I could also have really mucked up the d6 details, so feel free to call me on that.

 

[The_Universe]

Well, both Shadowrun and D6 are what is commonly referred to as "Dice Pool" systems. However, modifiers based on multiple actions/increased difficulty are generally adjusted on the player's roll, rather that moving the target number up or down.

*pulls out old Star Wars books* As for the actual target numbers for actions:

Very easy - 1-5 (1D6)
Easy - 6-10 (2D6)
Moderate - 11-15 (3D6-4D6)
Difficult - 16-20 (5D6-6D6)
Very Difficult - 21-30 (7D6-8D6)
Heroic - 31+ (9D6---->)

D6 doesn't work terribly well for a grim and gritty kind of game (or really, at all--with the strength attribute being used for how one both takes and deals damage, almost no one dies, EVER, except on a fluke). It works extraordinarily well for high-adventure space opera if you're a player, and with a little effort, it can do passibly well as high fantasy as well.

However, you should only be the GM using this system if you hate yourself. There's no balance, no power limits inherent in the game, and no cieling for advancement. NPCs and thugs are either impossible to defeat, or childs play (with almost no middle ground). Although it can make a very flexible character, there's almost no reason *not* to have a high strength...the overpowered nature of the attribute really appeals to power gamers. A LOT.

Anyway, I have fond memories, but no illusions as to what the system can do. If you want gritty, near future action, play shadowrun. If you want star wars, this'll work, but D20 is superior in several (although not all) ways.

Just had to chime in, again.

 

[AIM-54]

Well, both Shadowrun and D6 are what is commonly referred to as "Dice Pool" systems. However, modifiers based on multiple actions/increased difficulty are generally adjusted on the player's roll, rather that moving the target number up or down.

*pulls out old Star Wars books* As for the actual target numbers for actions:

Very easy - 1-5 (1D6)
Easy - 6-10 (2D6)
Moderate - 11-15 (3D6-4D6)
Difficult - 16-20 (5D6-6D6)
Very Difficult - 21-30 (7D6-8D6)
Heroic - 31+ (9D6---->)

D6 doesn't work terribly well for a grim and gritty kind of game (or really, at all--with the strength attribute being used for how one both takes and deals damage, almost no one dies, EVER, except on a fluke). It works extraordinarily well for high-adventure space opera if you're a player, and with a little effort, it can do passibly well as high fantasy as well.

However, you should only be the GM using this system if you hate yourself. There's no balance, no power limits inherent in the game, and no cieling for advancement. NPCs and thugs are either impossible to defeat, or childs play (with almost no middle ground). Although it can make a very flexible character, there's almost no reason *not* to have a high strength...the overpowered nature of the attribute really appeals to power gamers. A LOT.

Anyway, I have fond memories, but no illusions as to what the system can do. If you want gritty, near future action, play shadowrun. If you want star wars, this'll work, but D20 is superior in several (although not all) ways.

Just had to chime in, again.

Aha, the numbers reminded me of another difference. In SR it's the number of successes garnered on the dice (a TN of 4 is average and 10 is considered near impossible) versus an opponents successes to determine the success of combat, social interaction etc. Singular actions simply require a roll to determine a number of successes which then allows the GM to determine how well a task is performed or how much information is gleaned.

Hope that helps!

 

[LostSoul]

D6 doesn't work terribly well for a grim and gritty kind of game (or really, at all--with the strength attribute being used for how one both takes and deals damage, almost no one dies, EVER, except on a fluke).

I think you could do a grim and gritty type of game. You could keep all the attributes down, and impose a rule that advancing skills beyond a certain point (say 2d above attribute level) becomes more difficult (on the level of advanced skills).

In Star Wars it's not to hard to die, even if you've got Stormtrooper armour and a 4d STR. Against a squad of 10 stormies who combine their fire, you're looking at 9d damage. 5d vs 9d - you're looking at a mortal wound on average.

However, you should only be the GM using this system if you hate yourself. There's no balance, no power limits inherent in the game, and no cieling for advancement. NPCs and thugs are either impossible to defeat, or childs play (with almost no middle ground). Although it can make a very flexible character, there's almost no reason *not* to have a high strength...the overpowered nature of the attribute really appeals to power gamers. A LOT.

It's true, the balance issue is in the hands of the players. It depends on your group to deal with this (and GM issues to a degree - if someone boosts MEC and SF piloting, and then doesn't get to pilot at all - that PC is nerfed).

I've never found NPCs and thugs to be either too hard or too easy. If you want a balanced encounter, set the NPC's Dodge = to the PC's Blaster, and the NPC's Blaster = to the PC's Dodge. Then you'll have a situation where tactics will be the determining factor. (You can also set up situations where the NPC is really hard to hurt but can't hit PCs easily. An AT-ST walker is a good example.)

There is a good reason not to put too much into STR (although I'd make sure I had at least 3d). It's because the other attributes are generally better. If you have a good KNO, PER, or DEX (and sometimes TEC, if you're a smart guy), you might not ever have to make a STR check. If you're piloting as ship, you won't ever make a STR check. There isn't ever just one single way to get past an obstacle - you could shoot him, fast-talk the guy, trick others into fighting for you, sneak past him, rig a bomb, throw a ton of grenades, get in a vehicle, etc.

 

[Sado]

For those complaining about having to add up a ton of dice, they had another system called D6 Legend that used successes/failures instead of adding all those dice together. A little easier, although it took away some character options (didn't use "pips").

Another option is to slow down D6 character advancement. That way you have to put more thought into your initial stat/skill choices, and it keeps characters from ending up looking the same. Plus you wouldn't have as many dice to roll.

I also think a Feat system similar to D20's would help make D6 characters more unique, since everyone has the same Stats and Skills. Shoot, you could just about take the D20 feats and use them as-is.

Just my two cents.

 

[glass]

It will never dethrone D&D, much less d20, since it costs $500 plus if you want to put out a product using it (compared to free for d20).

I bet people are breaking down the door to take them up on that offer!


glass.

 

[Garlak]

There seem to be many D20 experts here.

I'd like to make a low power fantasy D&D game without rebuilding the system.

Magic is way to powerfull and clearly unbalanced.
Inflating HP makes character way to tough.
BAB means I pick up a new weapon and I am just as good with it as I am with the weapon I use every day, pure BS. Weapons require trainning.
PrC: Instead of making flexible classes they give us Pigeon hole classes.

I don't see any way to do it.
I will probably buy D6, mostly because D&D was built with one thing in mind:
High Power Fantasy. I have read many reviews about modified D20 games and most of them change little details not the big things that I hate.

 

[Psion]

I'd like to make a low power fantasy D&D game without rebuilding the system.

Two words: Grim Tales.

BAB means I pick up a new weapon and I am just as good with it as I am with the weapon I use every day, pure BS. Weapons require trainning.

If you totally ignore weapon proficiency, focus, and specialization, yeah.

And you prefer that a person's combat abilities have no relation to one another. THAT makes no sense.

I will probably buy D6, mostly because D&D was built with one thing in mind:
High Power Fantasy. I have read many reviews about modified D20 games and most of them change little details not the big things that I hate.

You read the wrong reviews, I guess. Take BESM d20, for example. Weapon abilities are skills instead of feat.

 

[Numion]

- up there w BRP Call of Cthulu as a design classic IMO;

Call of Cthulhu a design classic? Aren't the rules straight from RuneQuest fantasy roleplaying game? Your duck wants a cthulhu ftang!

 

[Garlak]

BESM: The new edition seems to have some major issues.

I prefer weapon group skills because they make sense. You're good with a broadsword you'll be about as good with a longsword because they are similar.
An axe and a longsword use different techniques.

I'll look for reviews of Grim Tales.