d6 the future of d20?

[Zappo]

That's a feature, not a flaw. Characters are as different as the Players want them to be. If they are the same, it would be like D&D characters all picking the same classes. And you're also forgetting that, as per the rules, two Jedis can have two totally different set of Force skills.

The problem is that attributes and skills are simply not enough features. Unless you really go out of your way to make a "different" character than the previous one, it will end up being rather similar. Oh, the new character may have one less die in an attribute and one more die in a skill, but so what? Are two characters with 5d and 5d+2 in blaster really "different"? By comparison, in D20 you've got the same number of attributes, about the same number of skills, plus classes and feats. There's simply a whole lot more variability to play with. In D6 you certainly have more "freedom of movement" - but you are in a much smaller space.

You can try and calculate the number of distinct SWd6 characters versus the number of distinct SWd20 characters, if you want (what I call the "character space"). We're talking about a difference of several orders of magnitude.

 

[The_Universe]

What were the deficiencies that you encountered when you were playing d6?

Just to give you one example - D20 has a quick, simple system for grappling. D6 had nothing of the sort, or even another set of rules that suggested how it might be played out.

In another instance, Astrogation (the skill used to navigate through space in Star Wars) was an important skill for all star pilots, but it had no explanation for how the roll was supposed to be resolved. How the heck is the GM supposed to know what an easy, moderate, or difficult astrogation check is? Furthermore, even if they had included apropriate difficulties, there was no explanation of what failure looked like. If I screw up my Astrogation roll, do I just not jump to hyperspace? Do I jump the wrong place? Do I get stuck in an extradimensional abyss? All of this is up the GM. As I said before--great for guys and gals who hate to be restricted, but a pain for people who want to tell a story, and not make up rules.

I could go on for days. Just a couple examples...

 

[LostSoul]

The problem is that attributes and skills are simply not enough features.

After played d6 for a few years, I hit this point, where I wanted the PCs to have individual, special abilities. I guess it's a trade-off for having a simple system.

Adding new abilities wouldn't be too hard, though. You could take the Feats from d20, or similar advantages from another source, and plug them into d6 without too much trouble. If you're of the mind to do that sort of thing.

 

[LostSoul]

Just to give you one example - D20 has a quick, simple system for grappling. D6 had nothing of the sort, or even another set of rules that suggested how it might be played out.

d20's grappling rules aren't exactly quick and simple. In d6, I would assume that you roll your Brawling vs. Brawling Parry/Melee Parry/Dodge. In place of causing damage, you have the guy in a pin. He has to beat you in a Brawling vs. Brawling Parry roll to get out and do something. I'd probably let him shoot or whatever still, but at a -2d penalty.

But as far as core rules go, you would roll Brawling vs. Brawling Parry, and if you cause damage, that's from the pin/hold on the other guy. All abstract-like.

In another instance, Astrogation (the skill used to navigate through space in Star Wars) was an important skill for all star pilots, but it had no explanation for how the roll was supposed to be resolved. How the heck is the GM supposed to know what an easy, moderate, or difficult astrogation check is? Furthermore, even if they had included apropriate difficulties, there was no explanation of what failure looked like. If I screw up my Astrogation roll, do I just not jump to hyperspace? Do I jump the wrong place? Do I get stuck in an extradimensional abyss? All of this is up the GM. As I said before--great for guys and gals who hate to be restricted, but a pain for people who want to tell a story, and not make up rules.

I could go on for days. Just a couple examples...

Astrogation, and Hyperspace, are plot devices. The Difficulty, then, is however hard the GM decides it is. And failure is, again, whatever the GM decides it to be.

With a lack of strict structure like that, I find it much easier to craft a story than if the rules had been spelled out. If the PCs fail an Astrogation check, it could be because the hyperdrive is out, an asteriod is in their path, a group of pirates have snatched them out of hyperspace, etc. Pretty much whatever you want.

It's not too hard to come up with rules for this sort of thing, either. You can craft a table based on the Damage Table that has results for failed rolls - make it whatever you want. (eg. Failed by 1-3: trip takes twice as long. Failed by 15+: ship is blown up.) You can also use the standard assumptions of skill values to set the Difficulty - 2D is something an average guy should be able to pull off, so set the Difficulty at 2D for an Astrogation path that an average guy can pull off. 4D for something you'd need to be trained at, 8D for something only the crack aces can do, etc.

 

[Foundry of Decay]

D6 systems aren't my thing, but I'll be neutral here for a few things:

Some Pros:

* Classes: I admit that I liked the free style 'no class' system that D6 offered. this pretty much meant that you could make up any hero you could imagine, and come up with different 'professions' on the fly. If you wanted an Indiana Jones type hero instead of a Han Solo hero, it was pretty simple to revamp things to accomodate that

* Interesting critical system: One dice was designated a 'critical' dice. If it rolled a 1, you took that dice away, as well as another dice that rolled high. If you rolled a 6, you would roll that dice over. If you got another 6 I believe, you'd roll it yet again, and so on.

Some Cons:

* Let's make the GM cry: Star Wars D6 drove me right up the wall and slammed me into the cieling on a continuous loop. I had to deal with multiple enemies with multiple stacks of dice, and Jedi. At higher skill levels, fighting enemies became a chore of dropping 12 d6, and adding them all up for each enemy (I didn't usually have gaggles of storm troopers at that level, but unique enemies with differing abilities).
When my player's would state that they wanted Jedi, I'd nearly break down an weep, knowing that *every* other 'class' type would be rendered utterly useless. Jedi would get even more dice, with more power, and one of moderate ability wandering around with a light saber and different combat abilities 'up' couldn't be hit! And they would then deal buckets of D6 to hit/damage many multiple times in the same round (There wasn't a limit to attacks, you would just minus one D6 per additional attack I believe).

* One dice Humdrum: Everything seemed to take on an homogenous feel to it after a while. New weapons were pointless, because they would simply do more or less D6 damage. New ships were about the same. There was only so much you could do with a D6 system to make it exciting. You couldn't add any more than +3 (I believe) to certain things, or it would simply become another D6 to roll. This basically started to make me get bored with things, and eventually give it up entirely.

* Day two of the first round: At the higher skill levels, combat, or any simple function became mind-bogglingly slow. When you have one player dropping 18 D6, and having to add them up for ONE action, only to have to do that 3 or 4 more times, I was about ready to bite through the table. Multiply this by a few players and then the enemies that the GM controlls, you you'll soon be in hades wishing you could just flip a coin and see the sunlight again.

There are my 12 cents.

 

[LostSoul]

I had to deal with multiple enemies with multiple stacks of dice, and Jedi. At higher skill levels, fighting enemies became a chore of dropping 12 d6, and adding them all up for each enemy (I didn't usually have gaggles of storm troopers at that level, but unique enemies with differing abilities).

I only had a few fights with gaggles of unique NPCs. When you've got a gaggle of Stormies, it's pretty easy to just have them combine fire and act as one unit.

And when you're dropping 12d6... that's about the same power level as 15th-20th level d20 characters.

When my player's would state that they wanted Jedi, I'd nearly break down an weep, knowing that *every* other 'class' type would be rendered utterly useless.

That was always a problem with the game (or the setting) - balance between Jedi and non-Jedi. At the beginning, Jedi are very weak. Using a lightsabre is much too dangerous. A bounty hunter with a blaster is a better combatant up to the point where you reach 9D skill levels. At that point, the Jedi will edge ahead.

* One dice Humdrum: Everything seemed to take on an homogenous feel to it after a while.

Can't really argue with this... but isn't it the same in every game system?

* Day two of the first round: At the higher skill levels, combat, or any simple function became mind-bogglingly slow. When you have one player dropping 18 D6, and having to add them up for ONE action...

What you're talking about is equivalent to Epic level D&D gaming. Combat gets slow there too.

I always found d6 combat to move much faster than D&D.

 

[The_Universe]

d20's grappling rules aren't exactly quick and simple. In d6, I would assume that you roll your Brawling vs. Brawling Parry/Melee Parry/Dodge. In place of causing damage, you have the guy in a pin. He has to beat you in a Brawling vs. Brawling Parry roll to get out and do something. I'd probably let him shoot or whatever still, but at a -2d penalty.

But as far as core rules go, you would roll Brawling vs. Brawling Parry, and if you cause damage, that's from the pin/hold on the other guy. All abstract-like.



Astrogation, and Hyperspace, are plot devices. The Difficulty, then, is however hard the GM decides it is. And failure is, again, whatever the GM decides it to be.

With a lack of strict structure like that, I find it much easier to craft a story than if the rules had been spelled out. If the PCs fail an Astrogation check, it could be because the hyperdrive is out, an asteriod is in their path, a group of pirates have snatched them out of hyperspace, etc. Pretty much whatever you want.

It's not too hard to come up with rules for this sort of thing, either. You can craft a table based on the Damage Table that has results for failed rolls - make it whatever you want. (eg. Failed by 1-3: trip takes twice as long. Failed by 15+: ship is blown up.) You can also use the standard assumptions of skill values to set the Difficulty - 2D is something an average guy should be able to pull off, so set the Difficulty at 2D for an Astrogation path that an average guy can pull off. 4D for something you'd need to be trained at, 8D for something only the crack aces can do, etc.

Right right. I'm not saying that you couldn't MAKE UP rules for any number of things. I'm just saying they weren't there in the first place.

As I have noted before, some people really dig the freedom. For me, it was a pain in the buttocks.

As for astrogation as a plot device, even if there had been rules for astrogation, I still could have MADE it a plot device. A wandering asteroid can yank 'em out of hyperspace even if there were detailed rules explaining what astrogating was, and how it worked had been written--that's my prerogative as the GM.

On the other hand, D6 didn't give me that option. It just automatically makes it a plot device, thereby making a skill totally useless. Sure, they can put character points in the skill, but I'll drag em out of hyperspace whenever I damned well want to, anyway. So why bother?

Now, to be fair, the above makes it seem like I really don't like the system. I do. A lot. d6 star wars was home, and I love it dearly. HOWEVER, I can recognize its deficiencies.

The rules that are there are fun--I'm just saying there aren't nearly enough to cover *most* issues in the game, let alone *all* the issues.

All, IMHO, of course.

 

[LostSoul]

Right right. I'm not saying that you couldn't MAKE UP rules for any number of things. I'm just saying they weren't there in the first place.

As I have noted before, some people really dig the freedom. For me, it was a pain in the buttocks.

Yep. I guess it's a matter of style - for me, I like the fact that it allows me to come up with this sort of thing.

I like d6 better than d20, but I realize that both systems have their advantages. Sometimes I want to crack out D&D and get into it, because d6 sometimes is a little too "rules-lite" and I want a change. Then sometimes I want to go back to d6 and enjoy the freedom that it gives me (as both a player and GM).

I would actually say that d20 is the better system - not for me, though, but for the gaming community at large. But it's nice to have alternatives.

 

[tetsujin28]

d6 the future of d20?
No. Next question?

 

[woodelf]

Didn't Han get frozen in a big block of carbonite?

Sure, but think of how much good luck he had to get in a position for that to happen--he'd been evading bounty hunters, imperial patrols, organized crime, and pissed off former employers/customers for how long before that happened?