dark speech + suggestion or + charm

[emanresu]

If say a evil 8 Beguiler / 1 mindbender was to gain the Dark Speech feat could he make a practice of murdering people by having victims of my suggestions / charm spells convinced it was a good thing to say "abracadabra" and if they did their peni would double in size...little did they know this is dark speech and no listed save your dead for trying to pronounce it.

I mean its every bit as much evil Beguilery as one could get, to dope somebody into suicide, c'mon...Oh its cheese, its bad, a horrible thing to do, this I agree but is it RAW / RAI is the question?

eman

 

[Ahnehnois]

Asking a creature to do an obviously harmful act negates the spell. So the question is simply whether the harmfulness of attempting to use Dark Speech is obvious.

I would say that given how the dark speech as described as being obviously evil and grossly abnormal ("mortal tongues" were not designed to utter it, for example), I would say that it is intuitively obvious that Dark Speech is dangerous and that a character would not speak it unless dominated (at which point you can make them do anything).

 

[MarkB]

If say a evil 8 Beguiler / 1 mindbender was to gain the Dark Speech feat could he make a practice of murdering people by having victims of my suggestions / charm spells convinced it was a good thing to say "abracadabra" and if they did their peni would double in size...little did they know this is dark speech and no listed save your dead for trying to pronounce it.

I mean its every bit as much evil Beguilery as one could get, to dope somebody into suicide, c'mon...Oh its cheese, its bad, a horrible thing to do, this I agree but is it RAW / RAI is the question?

eman

Saying a nonsense word that sounds similar to a word of Dark Speech is not the same as trying to pronounce Dark Speech.

 

[emanresu]

Ahnehnois

My point is...if a charmed fighter is told by me to try to say "enter word in dark speech here" then sense he trusts me and tries to say it...difficult to pronounce as it is, howd he even know its a bad word? Until its to late and hes putting his life in the "swear jar".

Nobody knows how to say these words let alone what they even are. They would have no context from which to judge.

I mean what if my evil Beguiler walked up to a little kid and said say "enter word in dark speech here" and I will give this lolly pop...BOOM! kids dead for trying?

this is my question, it seems to be ambiguous at best



now for

MarkB
Saying a nonsense word that sounds similar to a word of Dark Speech is not the same as trying to pronounce Dark Speech.

ok thank you that was helpful...

being that I dont know any words in dark speech I made up one. If you just so happen to know of a word in dark speech then heck we'll use that as an example, just post it here if that will make you feel better...........

 

[MarkB]

ok thank you that was helpful...

being that I dont know any words in dark speech I made up one. If you just so happen to know of a word in dark speech then heck we'll use that as an example, just post it here if that will make you feel better...........

You're missing my point. There's a big difference between somebody uttering a set of syllables that they consider to be meaningless and somebody deliberately trying to correctly pronounce a word of mystical power. Intent matters.

 

[Ahnehnois]

My point is...if a charmed fighter is told by me to try to say "enter word in dark speech here" then sense he trusts me and tries to say it...difficult to pronounce as it is, howd he even know its a bad word? Until its to late and hes putting his life in the "swear jar".

Nobody knows how to say these words let alone what they even are. They would have no context from which to judge.

Logically, that would make sense. If we weren't talking about Dark Speech. However, Dark Speech is "inherently full of spite, malice, corruption, and hatred". It is also impossible to use if you're unwilling. I think it's pretty obvious that the RAI (which is what you asked) meant that attempting to use it was not something that one could do by accident or without genuinely understanding what they were doing.

The whole idea brings to mind the scene from the Expanded Fellowship of the Ring where Gandalf utters some of the LotR equivalent of Dark Speech, and the light changes and the earth shudders beneath them. You don't have to have any idea what the words are that are being said to understand that this is some bad stuff. If one of the people watching that scene was then asked by a suggestion or charm spell to repeat his words, the spell would be broken because it is obvious that those words are harmful.

 

[emanresu]

ok now that makes a good response at 1st I thought you were a lunatic so my smart ass response was targeted at so...my apologies.

Intent, hhhmmmmm, so they would have to know what, exactly, to qualify? The reason I ask, my pc, female-beguiler-mindbender-evil, would love nothing more than tricking somebody to death. Its just how to accomplish this that seems to be the task.

 

[Umbran]

In order to say it, they'd have to *hear* the Beguiler speak it! The nature of the words, then, will be obvious to the listener.

 

[Empirate]

This sounds like a looooooot of trouble to go to just for killing some people. It's not as if D&D didn't provide alternate methods...

 

[emanresu]

I think the problem is trying to figure out the rules for such. In practice/theory its extremely simple "here say this". The question is whatever line of bullpoop I use trying to trick somebody into saying "this" does tricking somebody work? Or do they need to know what they are saying? If tricking works then my beguiler just loves the glibness spell, I could convince any body of damn near anything, for a time.

If "tricking" somebody into saying or attempting saying dark speech does not work, that means they must be aware, to a certain degree, what that they are doing is something wrong, bad and possible evil. Then the question is to what degree?

- victim needs to know what they are saying is a bad word, and possible evil; then I may still be able to convince "trick" them into saying dark speech, convincing them, this little transgression will aid them somehow.

- victim needs to know what they are saying is not only a bad word, but is most definitely evil and is used in pagan ritual, witchcraft & black magic. This would be a little harder for me to convince victim that saying the word is evil but will save little Jimmy, commit this little evil act for the greater good.

-OR
-victim needs to know what they are saying is a soul eating evil that will condemn them to an eternity of brimstone n anguish. Saying this word means you are attempting to unlock the mysteries of black magic.
Its suicide to try and say. Saying this word will never aid you in anything but evil, murder n death.... Ok so this one might require the glibness spell to pull off, if even that. Come to the Dark side its your only chance at saving padema. (spelling?)


My beguiler/mindbender is just trying to find as many no save scenarios as possible this is just one of them