Darkstalker VS Lifesense(s)

[Jimlock]

...so what beats what in your opinion?

Darkstalker

( Lords of Madness, p. 179)

[General]
You have learned how to stalk and surprise creatures whose senses are very different from those of a humanoid.
Prerequisite:
Benefit: When you hide, creatures with blindsense, blindsight, scent, or tremorsense must make a Listen check or a Spot check (whichever DC is higher) to notice you, just as sighted creatures would make Spot checks to detect you. You cannot hide in plain sight unless you have that ability as a class feature. In addition, you can fl ank creatures that have the all-around vision special quality.
Normal: Creatures with these senses do not need to make Spot or Listen checks to notice other creatures within range. Creatures with all-around vision can't be fl anked.

SRD:
Lifesense (Su)
A dread wraith notices and locates living creatures within 60 feet, just as if it possessed the blindsight ability. It also senses the strength of their life force automatically, as if it had cast deathwatch.

Lifesense

( Libris Mortis: The Book of the Dead, p. 28)

[Monster]
You see the light that all living creatures emit.
Prerequisite: CHA 13, Con -- (no Constitution score),
Benefit: In addition to any normal light that might be present, your surroundings are illuminated by roving points of brightness created by living creatures. To your eyes, a Medium or smaller creature gives off life force suffi cient to provide bright illumination in a 60-foot radius, revealing itself and all features and objects in range to your life-adapted sight. This life-light behaves like regular light--you can't see into solid objects, or past solid walls. A Large creature gives off life-light in a 120-foot radius, and the radius doubles again for each additional size category larger than Medium, up to a maximum radius of 960 feet for a Colossal creature.

 

[Duke Arioch]

I think Darkstalker beats Lifesense (Su), as it is only a special version of Blindsense which is specifically stated in Darkstalker text. However, the feat acts differently, and should beat darkstalker. Mindsight+telepathy is another way one can beat darkstalker.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Yeah, unfortunately Darkstalker does not work against that feat or Mind Sight. That's why the scouting handbook strongly suggests being Necropolitan in order to avoid such things.

 

[LiL KiNG]

I was inclined to say Darkstalker beats the Lifesense (Su) but I'm on the fence about it because of the line about being able to detect "the strength of their life force automatically". I have a hard time believing you could hide from that with a skill check.
But since it does say it functions like a blindsight ability I'd probably let Darkstalker work for it, I just feel like being able to sense a life force would be a bit harder to hide from.

I don't think Darkstalker beats the Lifesense feat though, and am wondering if low-light vision would double that radiated light radius from living creatures like it would for normal light sources?

 

[Ahnehnois]

The way I read it, it's option 3.

The Su ability is pretty explicit that you should treat it as blindsight, so it seems like Darkstalker should beat it.

But the Lifesense feat has the illumination; I don't see that the Darkstalker feat countermands that. If anything, I might let a Darkstalking character make the Hide check, but apply a huge penalty for the (effective) bright light he is emitting.

 

[Duke Arioch]

Yeah, unfortunately Darkstalker does not work against that feat or Mind Sight. That's why the scouting handbook strongly suggests being Necropolitan in order to avoid such things.

You say unfortunately, I say fortunately XD
Guess we know who hides, and who seeks

 

[xigbar]

It works against the (Su) because that specifically calls out Blindsense. The feat does not, and is not otherwise mentioned in Darkstalker.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Well, it just annoys me that there's this super-sense feat that basically can't be defeated. Unless you're also "on the team," so to speak. That a 20th level Rogue/Shadowdancer/whatever with maxed stealth skills still has no way of defeating it.

Darkstalker IMO was one of the single greatest feats ever printed. Before it came, a mundane (non-caster) "scouting" was just a bad joke with a corpse as the punchline. That feat single-handedly almost fixed the entire stealth rules mechanics to make them viable. No longer did a laundry list of super senses that seemingly every other monster you could shake a stick at possessed make the entire exercise suicide.

Unfortunately, the very same book also introduced a new undefeatable (as per RAW, but clearly not RAI) means of detection. I think being immune to mind-affecting, mind blanked, or subject of a Nondetection spell should protect someone from it, but again, that'd be more RAI.

 

[Duke Arioch]

Well, it just annoys me that there's this super-sense feat that basically can't be defeated. Unless you're also "on the team," so to speak. That a 20th level Rogue/Shadowdancer/whatever with maxed stealth skills still has no way of defeating it.

Darkstalker IMO was one of the single greatest feats ever printed. Before it came, a mundane (non-caster) "scouting" was just a bad joke with a corpse as the punchline. That feat single-handedly almost fixed the entire stealth rules mechanics to make them viable. No longer did a laundry list of super senses that seemingly every other monster you could shake a stick at possessed make the entire exercise suicide.

Unfortunately, the very same book also introduced a new undefeatable (as per RAW, but clearly not RAI) means of detection. I think being immune to mind-affecting, mind blanked, or subject of a Nondetection spell should protect someone from it, but again, that'd be more RAI.

I agree. I always houserule that mindblank and similar effects block mindsight. It is not RAW, but it seems to be common sense.

 

[Jimlock]

Well, it just annoys me that there's this super-sense feat that basically can't be defeated. Unless you're also "on the team," so to speak. That a 20th level Rogue/Shadowdancer/whatever with maxed stealth skills still has no way of defeating it.

Darkstalker IMO was one of the single greatest feats ever printed. Before it came, a mundane (non-caster) "scouting" was just a bad joke with a corpse as the punchline. That feat single-handedly almost fixed the entire stealth rules mechanics to make them viable. No longer did a laundry list of super senses that seemingly every other monster you could shake a stick at possessed make the entire exercise suicide.

Unfortunately I ca't XP you right know. I can't agree more.