Daylight vs Deeper Darkness

[Blacksway]

We have an argument in our group about the dispelling effects of deeper darkness vs daylight.

The party has entered a dungeon completely filled with deeper darkness spells, which the've been ignoring thanks to a scroll of daylight; these two spells cancel each other out, so the party is relying on torches to see (same as usual) and everyone is staying within 60' of the Sorcerer, to remain within the effects of the daylight.

The DM has a goblin priest capable of casting deeper darkness at will, and chooses to use another casting as a kind of dispel magic, since, in the wording of his spell, it says that "it counters and dispels daylight".

The use of deeper darkness as a counterspell is not under dispute but the DM plans to use the spell to target and negate the active daylight spell, much as a dispel magic.

To this, the players argue that this would be, in effect, trying to stack two deeper darkness spells, claiming that the dispelling effect is already covered under the spell descriptions, where it states that the two spells cancel each other out. They quote from the glossary: "Dispel: to counter, negate, or suppress another spell", and argue that this is the same as suppression.

Anyone understand all that? Whew! It's very much a matter of semantics. I won't say whether I'm the DM or one of the players, I'm just putting the argument up for debate.

We're back together next week, so prompt replies would be appreciated, ta!

 

[kreynolds]

The use of deeper darkness as a counterspell is not under dispute but the DM plans to use the spell to target and negate the active daylight spell, much as a dispel magic.

Tell the DM to go smoke a goat. He/she doesn't know what he's talkin' about (I mean this in the nicest possible way of course ). One casting of deeper darkness will negate the effects of daylight, but two castings of it do not stack.

 

[Dr. Zoom]

Also note that the spell targets an object, not another spell. The bad guy will actually have to use Dispel Magic to dispel a Daylight spell in this way.

 

[Jeremy]

Whoah whoah whoah waitaminnit...

Ignoring for the moment that Deeper Darkness is a touch spell and can't be bandied about like this, what's wrong with this scenario--

Wizard1 casts deeper darkness.

Wizard2 casts daylight, daylight and darkness cancel each other out, no spells up anymore.

Wizard1 casts deeper darkness again.

As far as I understand it when you cast a darkness spell at a light spell or cast a slow spell at a hasted person, both effects go away. The slow doesn't slow them, it just negates the haste. The daylight doesn't make light, it just gets rid of the darkness. Did I miss a memo?

 

[Tony Vargas]

IIRC, Daylight and Deeper Darkness are both cast on objects, and, if the objects are brought within eachother's radii, the spells temporarily cancel out eachothers effects, in the over-lapping area, leaving 'prevailing' lighting conditions. I'd expect 'prevailing' lighting conditions to be non-magical ones, not other spells, and certainly not other itterations of the same spell.

You certainly could dispel Daylight with Deeper Darkness, and vice versa, though - you just have to cast it on the affected object. So, whatever you do, don't let that goblin priest touch whatever it is you've cast Daylight on.

 

[Bobbystopholes]

Wait, this is a Wizard casting Daylight? If so, then the darkness is still there.

Daylight is a 2nd level spell for a Sorcerer/Wizard, 3rd for a Cleric. Deeper Darkness is only for Clerics and is 3rd level. I don't have my books, but I am pretty sure it says it in the spell's description that the Wizard version is useless against Deeper Darkness. Your party is walking blind. Get a Cleric.

 

[Jeremy]

D'oh!

Sorcerer vs. Cleric.

And here the Wizards thought there were better with evocations and could manage the same magic with less energy. When in actuality, their spell isn't as good as the cleric version. Tsk. Tsk. Tsk.

Stumbling around in the darkness time.

 

[Tony Vargas]

True, Daylight is 2nd for arcanists and 3rd for clerics, but, that doesn't change how it functions. Daylight brought into an area of Deeper Darkness still leaves only the 'prevailing' lighting conditions.

However, yes, a cleric casting Daylight on an item with Deeper Darkness cast on it dispels the Deeper Darkness while a wiz doing same fails to do so.

 

[Valmur_Dwur]

Ok more ammo You can't "counterspell" a spell after it has been cast only with a spellcraft check at the time AND the same spell or dispel magic can you do that. Also casting any spell upon the spell doesn't "stack" It mearly increases the length of time the effect is there for. You cast Bull's strength and then 2 rounds later cast it again. It takes the more powerful of the 2 casting and once one runs out the other if still in effect takes over. There is no such thing as Deeper Deeper Darkness

 

[AuraSeer]

Valmur_Dwur, you are incorrect.

From the SRD:

Daylight counters or dispels any darkness spell of equal or lower level, such as darkness.

The word "dispel" in this sentence is important. It means that you can use Daylight to end a preexisting spell, as long as that spell has the darkness descriptor, and is not of a higher level than Daylight.