DDM Lives! Through Official Fan License.

Dragonbait

Explorer
I cannot currently imagine any significant way in which this is not great news! Community-based development rocks! :lol:

WoTC has done this with almost all of their old settings and games - Dragon Dice, Birthright, Mystara, Dark Sun, Dragonlance, and so on. They decide that they will no longer produce material for the game/setting and hand it to someone else to take over (with a limit on where they can go with it). Granted, they can revoke the license, like Dragonlance, but still.
 

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justanobody

Banned
Banned
Things like DragonLance are very different than this. That being that they had a length to the license, and WotC decided not to renew, not that it could pull the license at just any time without reason.

The DDM license thing can be pulled tomorrow with no reason or recourse.
 

Scott_Rouse

Explorer
Things like DragonLance are very different than this. That being that they had a length to the license, and WotC decided not to renew, not that it could pull the license at just any time without reason.

The DDM license thing can be pulled tomorrow with no reason or recourse.


Yes, that is true. The Guild guys know this and they are willing to accept the risk. The two reasons I could ever really foresee us taking the license away from the Guild are because a) they totally screw it up (and let me just say I don't see that happening) b) their efforts grow the game to such a point that we want to take it back and as Kevin said on our initial phone call "we hope we grow this game to the point that you want it back".

This is a labor of love for them and the license is way of supporting their efforts. I see it as a real win win for everyone involved. We are elated to have such an impassioned community effort to keep the game going.
 

justanobody

Banned
Banned
Yes, that is true. The Guild guys know this and they are willing to accept the risk. The two reasons I could ever really foresee us taking the license away from the Guild are because a) they totally screw it up (and let me just say I don't see that happening) b) their efforts grow the game to such a point that we want to take it back and as Kevin said on our initial phone call "we hope we grow this game to the point that you want it back".

This is a labor of love for them and the license is way of supporting their efforts. I see it as a real win win for everyone involved. We are elated to have such an impassioned community effort to keep the game going.

Yeah, but I didn't want to state the obvious or put anyone on the line with "possible" reasons that could affect the view of WotC later, was just pointing out the difference in the license and possibility it has versus the Dragon/Dungeon license with Paizo, AD&D license with K&C, DragonLance with MWP, etc....that all had a set time limit that gave both WotC and the licensee an option to renew, with WotC having the first option that determines the licensees option. (blargh! I hope I got all that right!)

Wasn't implying anything, other than how this license differs from one that is secured in length.

Silly question for you or JQ...does skirmish support only mean DCI related tracking and scoring, or also prize support for the Guild skirmish tournaments under DCI and WotC, and how/who will be responsible with that?

As well does it only apply for 2.0 DDM, or 1.0 as well?

I must not be able to find that on the thread because many people are talking about converting 1.0 to 2.0 now under the "rule" of the Guild, and others wanting to be able to convert 2.0 backwards for those wanting to play 1.0 with the newest minis.

Also, for whomever; does it include stating of the new Heroes and Monster lines into DDM (1.0 or 2.0)?

Why not just another question while I am at it...

Should WotC reclaim DDM skirmish game from the Guild, who will own the new stats? Will players get to keep the Guilds stats and use them in the future, or will all those stats and cards be redone by WotC, making people have to switch they way they play yet again?
-AKA are the Guild stats and conversions considered official WotC products for skirmish games in the future?

NOTE: I would love some more life to 1.0 skirmish!
 

JohnnyQuest

First Post
Hey, thanks for your interest and questions, justanobody!

Silly question for you or JQ...does skirmish support only mean DCI related tracking and scoring, or also prize support for the Guild skirmish tournaments under DCI and WotC, and how/who will be responsible with that?

The proposed license agreement calls for WotC to continue tracking tournaments and DCI ranks for D&D Miniatures. Prize support will be handled by the Guild. Suggestions are welcome!

As well does it only apply for 2.0 DDM, or 1.0 as well?
I won't answer for our OP Lead, but our intention is to support both formats, and I don't see a reason why we can't use the DCI system to track both types of tournaments.

Also, for whomever; does it include stating of the new Heroes and Monster lines into DDM (1.0 or 2.0)?
The current group of freelance designers that is finishing the update of all sets to the 2.0 rules (see Blood War for an example) has agreed to create 2.0 stats for the Heroes and Monsters lines going forward. It is unclear at this point as to whether a group is interested in creating 1.0 stats for the Heroes and Monsters line. As you mention, there is a group that is working on converting Dungeons of Dread, Against the Giants, and Demonweb back to the 1.0 rules. The Guild has yet to determine a process for sanctioning of that work.

Should WotC reclaim DDM skirmish game from the Guild, who will own the new stats? Will players get to keep the Guilds stats and use them in the future, or will all those stats and cards be redone by WotC, making people have to switch they way they play yet again?
Obviously, I can't speak for WotC, but it's hard to envision a scenario in which the Guild is so successful that WotC wants to produce the skirmish game again (and, yes, that would be the ultimate success), yet they'd want to undo all the work of the Guild. That dog don't hunt ;)
 
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ktatroe

First Post
Silly question for you or JQ...does skirmish support only mean DCI related tracking and scoring, or also prize support for the Guild skirmish tournaments under DCI and WotC, and how/who will be responsible with that?

We'd love to provide prize support somehow, particularly for larger regional tournaments (for example, the Northeast Open that's coming up) in the form of hand-painted repaints and such. Exactly how we'll fund such efforts and what they will entail is still an open discussion.

As well does it only apply for 2.0 DDM, or 1.0 as well?

There's a group of folks working on creating old edition stats, which the Guild will support fully. I'm not sure we'll be able to DCI sanction those events, but we are working on a system to supplement DCI for reporting unsanctioned events (casual events are often some of our favorites, and we want to provide a mechanism for folks to play without "points on the line").

Also, for whomever; does it include stating of the new Heroes and Monster lines into DDM (1.0 or 2.0)?

Yes. One of the greatest things Wizards is giving us is advance access (under NDA, obviously) to the setlists for Heroes and Monster Manual lines of D&D Miniatures, so the Guild design freelancers can do day-and-date releases of downloadable stats for those releases.

Should WotC reclaim DDM skirmish game from the Guild, who will own the new stats? Will players get to keep the Guilds stats and use them in the future, or will all those stats and cards be redone by WotC, making people have to switch they way they play yet again?

That would be something we'd figure out if that particular "what if" occurred. BUT, the Guild is taking ownership of the rules and designs and such that it puts out -- and I personally am really keen on paying the freelancers for their work for doing so.

Given that, I imagine some arrangement would be arrived at to hand over ownership of that work to Wizards in that event.

I'd like to echo Scott's post above -- this clause, which I really do understand why some folks might worry over, points to my best case: that is, under the Guild's leadership, the D&D Miniatures skirmish game grows in such numbers that it becomes a financially viable product again.

Wizards coming in and asking to cancel the license so they can start producing the game again is the best of all possible end games, in my mind, and in the minds of the other Guild leaders.
 

Scott_Rouse

Explorer
Wasn't implying anything,


I did not take you comments that way so no worries. Quoting you was a segue to addressing concerns that are likely to be raised. We know that the retraction clause of license will be the thing that people are most likely to zero in on and criticize.

I think Kevin, Jim, and Garry's lack of concern on this point speaks volumes more to anything I could say on the issue.
 

justanobody

Banned
Banned
I won't answer for our OP Lead, but our intention is to support both formats, and I don't see a reason why we can't use the DCI system to track both types of tournaments.

Well it would require the DCI to do more work and make a section for each under Vintage, Standard and Limited(?) for 1.0 and 2.0, and It seems that no DDM database will be updated by WotC as part of the agreement...so if both can be sanctioned under the DDI, how will anyone know who is playing 1.0 and who is playing 2.0?

The current group of freelance designers that is finishing the update of all sets to the 2.0 rules (see Blood War for an example) has agreed to create 2.0 stats for the Heroes and Monsters lines going forward. It is unclear at this point as to whether a group is interested in creating 1.0 stats for the Heroes and Monsters line. As you mention, there is a group that is working on converting Dungeons of Dread, Against the Giants, and Demonweb back to the 1.0 rules. The Guild has yet to determine a process for sanctioning of that work.
Isn't Bert the Troll a big person in the reverse converting and also a member of the Guild?

I guess a big part would be which trademarked card layouts the Guild is able to work with. I have a few MSE cards made from newer 2.0 minis that are in 1.0 format and pretty close without having the actual fonts to create the cards.

Either case would require something else for people which is why I switched the order of your post a bit because the guild may need to be able to take in money to support prizes and things like maps.

Obviously, I can't speak for WotC, but it's hard to envision a scenario in which the Guild is so successful that WotC wants to produce the skirmish game again (and, yes, that would be the ultimate success), yet they'd want to undo all the work of the Guild. That dog don't hunt ;)
Yeah.

Hey, thanks for your interest and questions, justanobody!

The proposed license agreement calls for WotC to continue tracking tournaments and DCI ranks for D&D Miniatures. Prize support will be handled by the Guild. Suggestions are welcome!

So as mentioned above, it would mean what resources are available to the Guild and how/if they are allowed to try to support themselves.

I like the idea of a Gygax mini, but think everyone may want to have one rather than as prize support.

You know MANY people were interested in the cartoon minis...don't know how the Guild could product such things other than maybe a few people on the internet that do that in resin, but it would be costly.

Maybe the Guild needs to ask WotC for some help in a few things....

1- The Guild needs to know the WotC premiere stores interested in the continuation of DDM, but WotC probably doesn't want to release information like that that isn't something listed on the website.

2- the Guild needs some way for those venues to contact them to offer ideas form customers.

3- WotC may need to contact their "Premiere" stores and let the know about the Guild and how to contact the Guild about future events, unless that will all be handled through the DCI.

4- Since the Guild is responsible for the DCI floor rules under the continued DDM, it may need to spur play chances on for places other than just stores and expand to allow for home games under the same idea of 4 player minimum entrants in case stores no longer wish to participate because they can't get increased sales on a product that doesn't exist...except for in the case of the new minis lines having stats for either or both 1.0 and 2.0 of DDM....

Once that is all known and in place and the Guild knows what its budget is then maybe more chances for prize support ideas will come up but until then.....

Maps, fold-up terrain (unless this steps on WotC toes with Dungeon Tiles), Maybe try to get a mini from somewhere like Reaper.

My favorite prize was minis. I didn't care if they were repaints, but any mini. Who doesn't love minis. I never got and of the templates for effects, but that was something nice and something MORE people needed for counting things with those transparencies. I don't know what wuality could be made, or again if those would be allowed by WotC to make templates, or even needed for 2.0, but 1.0 could really use more for S&G.

The prize support I hated was Epic cards. I felt rules should be free with the purchase of the game and those having some special new rule were given unfair advantage in the game. If it will be Epic, then it needs to come with the mini, not as a prize. That just means the more you win, the more you can win.

Custom Tokens: Litko Aerosystems, Inc. could be a possibility as prizes for the various things in the minis game. Again, not to sure about 2.0 because I didn't switch, but 1.0 had some things that were annoying to keep track of on paper and cards, and those paper counters were too easily sneezed away.

Again maps kinda give people an unfair advantage in skirmish games as prizes, but is really the only cheap thing I can figure out.

Without monetary resources...it ain't easy to think of prize support because you would need the venues to buy it from you like form the DCI....but a die (d20) for the Guild would be a good thing.
 
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JohnnyQuest

First Post
Well it would require the DCI to do more work and make a section for each under Vintage, Standard and Limited(?) for 1.0 and 2.0, and It seems that no DDM database will be updated by WotC as part of the agreement...so if both can be sanctioned under the DDI, how will anyone know who is playing 1.0 and who is playing 2.0?

Well, the current Vintage ratings represent both 1.0 and 2.0 tournaments, so I don't see the necessity for separating them. If it becomes a need, though, I can see several solutions. Again, this is something our OP Lead will wrangle with, so don't take my musings as gospel.

Isn't Bert the Troll a big person in the reverse converting and also a member of the Guild?
Yes and yes! Bert has been doing great work. Last I knew, he hadn't committed to continuing to lead the 1.0 retroconversion of the Heroes and Monsters line, though. Again, we'll just have to wait and see what the interest level is and who steps up.

Great thoughts and suggestions on prize support. Thanks :D
 
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