Dear Mike & Monte

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
Technically OD&D had tiers of play.

Technically 2E acknowledged high level play options.

Technically 3E had two tiers (Standard and Epic)
Interesting that 1e did not, and is my preference; though I had never noticed this (very minor) connection before now.

I don't understand why anyone would 'dislike' the concept of tiers. I can understand people not liking to play certain tiers, but not liking the concept is bewildering.
I'm not a fan. I don't mind a fuzzy sort-of idea of low-level play, mid-level play, and high-level play but these really don't need to be hard-cast into the system. Each group will define these things differently - 7th level may be low to one group, mid to another, and high to a third...and off the chart for an E-6er. :)

Incenjucar said:
They have pre-1st level rules now.
They do?

Why oh why weren't these included with original core 4e?

Upper Krust said:
Paralleling low fantasy/sword & sorcery, mid fantasy/tolkeinesque and high fantasy/epic archetypes.
Paragon-tier 4e is already well past low fantasy in my eyes and pretty quickly leaves Tolkein behind as well.

Lan-"can anyone tell me if 4e is capable of high camp a la Hercules/Xena"-efan
 

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Hey Lanefan! :)

Lanefan said:
Interesting that 1e did not, and is my preference; though I had never noticed this (very minor) connection before now.

Weird that I played a character up to 117th-level Lesser God in 1st Edition then. :)

The design of 1E was interesting in that after a certain point your character really didn't get that much more powerful by levelling up. Its basically like having a capstone level (where you stop getting abilities) but then allowing PCs to transcend the capstone but with massively diminished benefits. This worked fairly well because it kept a very large chunk of the Monster Manuals and Fiend Folio relevant no matter what level you played at, while simultaneously allowing for inclusion of the immortals and monsters from Deities & Demigods.

Paragon-tier 4e is already well past low fantasy in my eyes and pretty quickly leaves Tolkein behind as well.

Witch-kings, Dragons, Balrogs, Artifacts and clashes with massive armies in my opinion suggest Paragon Tier.
 

Dausuul

Legend
I definitely second the notion to flesh out the tiers. I'm a big fan of the BD&D tier system. First tier is "local dungeon crawling," where you hack up monsters in dungeons close to your home base. Second tier is "wilderness adventuring," where you venture into distant and dangerous regions. Third tier is "domain rulership," where you carve out a kingdom of your own and defend it. Fourth tier is "quest for immortality," where you set out to make a permanent mark on the world.

The trick, I think, is to make sure that the new elements added with each tier are optional. So when you move into the "domain rulership" tier, there are rules for domain rulership and mass combat for those who want to explore such areas, but you can keep right on dungeon crawling if you want to.
 

Hey Dausuul! :)

Dausuul said:
I definitely second the notion to flesh out the tiers. I'm a big fan of the BD&D tier system. First tier is "local dungeon crawling," where you hack up monsters in dungeons close to your home base. Second tier is "wilderness adventuring," where you venture into distant and dangerous regions. Third tier is "domain rulership," where you carve out a kingdom of your own and defend it. Fourth tier is "quest for immortality," where you set out to make a permanent mark on the world.

Your breakdown might be better than my original suggestion. So I proffer a revised...

Red Box = Levels 1-5
Green Box = Levels 6-10
Blue Box = Levels 11-20
Black Box = Levels 21-30
Gold Box = Levels 31-50

Its obvious that the lower levels will have the most players and require the most support.

The trick, I think, is to make sure that the new elements added with each tier are optional. So when you move into the "domain rulership" tier, there are rules for domain rulership and mass combat for those who want to explore such areas, but you can keep right on dungeon crawling if you want to.

As I posted earlier, I really think Dungeon Crawling takes care of itself at higher levels.
 

I want the commoner tier... should be pretty easy to do. As suggested: the second tier can follow pretty soon and have rules forstarting there.
If you present it like that:

The first tier of play is useful if you are a new player and don´t know about the system. You can learn the basics of your class one by one and learn skills and tricks along the way.
It may also be useful for more experienced players who like to play a very low powered campaign that takes place in a city and is more based on intrigue than combat, as a little bit more powerful enemies can be very deadly.

If you want to start as an adventurer, you can skip those levels and start with the choice of the listed abilities you learned before you started adventuring.
 

Ahnehnois

First Post
Before mechanics, consider the basics:

What's the goal of D&D?

*Cooperatively telling fantasy adventure stories
*Providing an engaging and dynamic "game" element through the rules
*Having fun

The rules should serve these goals (or whatever goals a broader consensus produces). Anything that doesn't support the goals should be omitted.

How is an rpg developed?

Cooperatively. Any attempt to develop D&D behind closed doors with focus groups under NDAs is doomed to failure. D&D rules are not corporate secrets. Any game claiming to be D&D, regardless of its own merits, is doomed to failure if not subject to large-scale interactive playtesting and not released under some version of the OGL. That's the standard, and now that that bell has been rung it can't be unrung.

Who is D&D for?

D&D is for a variety of people from all walks of life who look for all sorts of things from a game. It is also for a variety of people who have never thought about any kind of rpg. Any attempt to target the game towards a specific (WoW-oriented) demographic is bound to lose many others. D&D is a game for everyone. Write something flexible, with simple basics and optional add-ons, and which covers a wide variety of possible gaming styles. Write a game for everyone.

Easier said than done (or I would have done it already), but that's the bar.
That is why we are excited to share with you that starting in Spring 2012, we will be taking this process one step further and conducting ongoing open playtests with the gaming community to gather feedback on the new iteration of the game as we develop it. With your feedback and involvement, we can make D&D better than ever. We seek to build a foundation for the long-term health and growth of D&D, one rooted in the vital traits that make D&D unique and special. We want a game that rises above differences of play styles, campaign settings, and editions, one that takes the fundamental essence of D&D and brings it to the forefront of the game. In short, we want a game that is as simple or complex as you please, its action focused on combat, intrigue, and exploration as you desire. We want a game that is unmistakably D&D, but one that can easily become your D&D, the game that you want to run and play.

D&D is more than just a set of rules for fantasy gaming. It launched an entire gaming genre and played a pivotal role in creating the entirety of the gaming industry, both analog and digital. The game has lived and thrived because it has awoken a spark of creation, visions of daring adventure, wondrous vistas, and untold horrors that pull us all together as a community of RPG fans. It is the countless players and DMs who have brought it to life over the years. The game is at its best when it is yours.

For that reason, we want your participation. The goals we have set for ourselves are by no means trivial or easy. By involving you in this process, we can build a set of D&D rules that incorporate the wants and desires of D&D gamers around the world. We want to create a flexible game, rich with options for players and DMs to embrace or reject as they see fit, a game that brings D&D fans together rather than serves as one more category to splinter us apart.
I'll give credit where it's due. They're saying that D&D should be for everyone, and doing some form of cooperative development. I remain skeptical of the company that gave us 4e and of the possibility of politicking, but I acknowledge that a positive message has been put out there, which is a step forward in itself.
 



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