Death Ward and Necromancers

[Infiniti2000]

What, so red dragon breath is not a magical fire effect?

Well it is, but it's not [Fire]. Is there anything that applies the descriptor to effects other than spells? Maybe I missed it.

 

[Hypersmurf]

The line about not protecting against other lethal attacks only refers to hit point damage (or Con damage perhaps).

...

2. It causes death (directly, not through hit point damage, suffocation, or other means).

So is something that causes death via suffocation an 'other lethal attack' or a death effect? It's not hit point damage or Con damage. In round 3, you die.

Does "You die from lack of air" make drowning less of a 'death effect' than Phantasmal Killer's "You die from fright"? Both bypass the hit point mechanic.

If you consider Phantasmal Killer a 'death effect' (meaning that death by PK means no Raise Dead or Reincarnate, for a start), then should not Miasma be one as well, for example?

-Hyp.

 

[IanB]

I could be swayed on blasphemy, maybe, but phantasmal killer is specifically called out as a fear effect; it is just a fear effect with a result of "death" rather than a result of "frightened" or "shaken".

The bodak's gaze attack is another likely 'magical death effect' that comes to mind that isn't a spell with the [Death] descriptor.

 

[Infiniti2000]

So is something that causes death via suffocation an 'other lethal attack' or a death effect? It's not hit point damage or Con damage. In round 3, you die.

Causing suffocation is an "other lethal attack" because it doesn't kill you directly, in the same line of thinking as "save or die" or "get hit by this ray and die" or "listen to this word and if you have crappy hit points you die". That would instead be, "save or suffocate for three rounds and then die (from the suffocation but not this effect)". That's not very direct, is it? Thus, not a "magical death effect." In other words, not having the requirement to breath (suddenly, within the 3 rounds but after the suffocation attack) would alleviate the condition. There's no such happenstance in a "magical death attack", because you die immediately (or not).

Does "You die from lack of air" make drowning less of a 'death effect' than Phantasmal Killer's "You die from fright"? Both bypass the hit point mechanic.

Absolutely. It's a timing thing, not a flavor thing. You're drumming up ways to kill you that do not simply say "You die." It's "you lose hit points, then die", "you can't breathe, then die", "you lose Con, then die", ...

If you consider Phantasmal Killer a 'death effect' (meaning that death by PK means no Raise Dead or Reincarnate, for a start), then should not Miasma be one as well, for example?

I'm pretty sure I've answered that, but note I'm not saying that you cannot be raised from phantasmal killer. A "magical death effect" (the wording in death ward) does not necessarily mean "death attack" (the special ability).

 

[Hypersmurf]

I'm pretty sure I've answered that, but note I'm not saying that you cannot be raised from phantasmal killer. A "magical death effect" (the wording in death ward) does not necessarily mean "death attack" (the special ability).

Raise Dead states that it cannot raise someone killed by a death effect.

If you claim PK as a magical death effect because it's magical, it's an effect, and it causes death, then the same logic means it must be considered a death effect, surely, and thus renders someone unRaisable?

-Hyp.

 

[Infiniti2000]

Raise Dead states that it cannot raise someone killed by a death effect.

If you claim PK as a magical death effect because it's magical, it's an effect, and it causes death, then the same logic means it must be considered a death effect, surely, and thus renders someone unRaisable?

And the result of this answer affects death ward in what way? Are you using this argument to say, somehow, that PK does not fall under the description "magical death effect" in the death ward spell description? If so, how? I'll answer your question if you can tell me why it matters. Actually, read the sblock after you answer.
[sblock] yes [/sblock]

 

[Hypersmurf]

And the result of this answer affects death ward in what way? Are you using this argument to say, somehow, that PK does not fall under the description "magical death effect" in the death ward spell description?

I'm saying that Phantasmal Killer cannot be a 'magical death effect' by the logic you provided without also being a 'death effect' by the same logic... but that I don't hold to that logic.

I'm saying that the Drd6 spell Drown is magical, is an effect, and causes death - it doesn't deal hit point damage that might kill someone if their hit point total is low; it doesn't deal Con damage that might kill someone if their Con score is low; rather, it contains the line "In the next round, the subject dies." The effect of the spell is that the subject dies.

But even though Phantasmal Killer and Drown are both magical effects that cause death, I consider neither to be a death effect; they carry neither the [Death] descriptor, nor a line that says "This is a death effect" like other death effects do.

By my reading, someone slain by Phantasmal Killer can be raised just fine, but Death Ward won't help against it, because while it's magical, and an effect, and kills you, it's not a magical death effect... just like Drown is a magical effect that kills you without being a magical death effect.

-Hyp.

 

[Infiniti2000]

Well, see, that is not an unreasonable solution, but in the end unacceptable. Since you didn't reject my previous assertion, then adding yours we get:

1. "death spells" are those with the [Death] descriptor.
2. "magical death effects" are magical effects that explicitly identify themselves as "death effects" (not just as causing death either directly or indirectly)

For example, finger of death (and power word kill, etc.) is a "death spell" but it is not a "magical death effect" (thus you can be raised from it).

You'll now note, however, that there are no spells that are death effects. In fact, a search of the SRD only brought up the arrow of slaying, death domain ability, and the thought slayer's ability as death effects. Worse, we have something called "death attack" that seems to function exactly the same as "death effect". What are death attacks, pray tell? I would assume that an assassin's strike is one, right? Other than that, there are no death attacks (explicitly) mentioned in the SRD.

 

[Hypersmurf]

You'll now note, however, that there are no spells that are death effects.

Well, much as I'd say any spell with the [Fear] descriptor is a fear effect, and any spell with the Enchantment (Charm) subschool is an enchantment (charm) effect, I'd say that any spell with the [Death] descriptor is a death effect...

Worse, we have something called "death attack" that seems to function exactly the same as "death effect". What are death attacks, pray tell?

Hmm... interestingly, 'death attack' is defined, in the glossary...

[glossary]Death Attack[/glossary]: A spell or special ability that instantly slays the target, such as finger of death. Neither raise dead nor reincarnation can grant life to a creature slain by a death attack, though resurrection and more powerful effects can. In most cases, a death attack allows the victim a Fortitude save to avoid the affect, but if the save fails, the character dies instantly. A victim cannot be made stable and thereby kept alive. In case it matters, a dead character, no matter how she died, has -10 hit points. The spell death ward protects a character against these attacks.​

Which makes it sound like Phantasmal Killer would qualify, but a spell that, say, made someone nauseated in round 1, stunned in round 2, and dead in round 3 (with a Fort save each round to end the effect) would not.

-Hyp.

 

[IanB]

Well, much as I'd say any spell with the [Fear] descriptor is a fear effect, and any spell with the Enchantment (Charm) subschool is an enchantment (charm) effect, I'd say that any spell with the [Death] descriptor is a death effect...



Hmm... interestingly, 'death attack' is defined, in the glossary...

[glossary]Death Attack[/glossary]: A spell or special ability that instantly slays the target, such as finger of death. Neither raise dead nor reincarnation can grant life to a creature slain by a death attack, though resurrection and more powerful effects can. In most cases, a death attack allows the victim a Fortitude save to avoid the affect, but if the save fails, the character dies instantly. A victim cannot be made stable and thereby kept alive. In case it matters, a dead character, no matter how she died, has -10 hit points. The spell death ward protects a character against these attacks.​

Which makes it sound like Phantasmal Killer would qualify, but a spell that, say, made someone nauseated in round 1, stunned in round 2, and dead in round 3 (with a Fort save each round to end the effect) would not.

-Hyp.

Well, you can make the argument that phantasmal killer doesn't *instantly* kill the target - there's all that business about the first save after all. It does seem sort of iffy though.