Debunking the myth there are no "heroes" in "A Song of Ice & Fire"

[King_Stannis]

...Look at all the evil things Stannis has done so far but he really isn't a villian at all.

I'd challenge that to some extent. I assume you're talking about Renly's killing...It's made clear that Stannis had no idea what was going on with Melisandre and the Shadow...

At any rate, Renly deserved no better. He was perhaps one of the most treacherous characters in the book, through all his smiles.

 

[Sagan Darkside]

At any rate, Renly deserved no better. He was perhaps one of the most treacherous characters in the book, through all his smiles.

Of course this is a side issues, but did you get the idea that he and the knight of flowers (iirc that is what the knight was called) were a bit more then friends?

SD

 

[King_Stannis]

Of course this is a side issues, but did you get the idea that he and the knight of flowers (iirc that is what the knight was called) were a bit more then friends?

SD

Not the first time through, but I will look for that subtext the second time around - I am just starting ACoK.

By the way, you are correct - Loras Tyrell is the "Knight of Flowers". It would be his brother in law, too, by his brief marraige to Margeary Tyrell.

 

[Sagan Darkside]

Not the first time through, but I will look for that subtext the second time around - I am just starting ACoK.

I will need to reread it to point out specific instances- but I know remarks are made by other characters about Renly not likely to get his wife pregnant. I recall Stannis even making an innuendo to it during one of their few face to face confrontations.

Argh- curse my memory. I would never have earned any chains.

SD

 

[jdavis]

I'd challenge that to some extent. I assume you're talking about Renly's killing...It's made clear that Stannis had no idea what was going on with Melisandre and the Shadow...

At any rate, Renly deserved no better. He was perhaps one of the most treacherous characters in the book, through all his smiles.

well he did quite a few questionable things, but most could be attributed to Melisandre leading/controlling him. If he set out to murder his brother using dark magic he would of been evil, as it is he really should of known and the fact that he was pretty remorseless after it happened stands out. There is a whole main character devoted to saving the beloved Stannis from the evil witch. Qualify Stannis as a Hero or villian though, you just can't do it, he is not overtly evil, he is just fighting for what is his (his claim is the true one), so qualify him as a hero, well he has done way to many questionable things (wanting to sacrifice a nephew would be considered unheroic). He really doesn't fit any catagory either way right now, he could end up a major hero in the north or he could become a obsessed madman or he could become Melisandre's complete pawn or he could stay the same course in the middle.

I'm going to have to reread the books with the new one coming out soon (and to kill the taste of the horrible Robert Jordan book), I do remember that there was some questioning of Renly's ability to get a heir with his new wife but I don't remember the context.

 

[King_Stannis]

well he did quite a few questionable things, but most could be attributed to Melisandre leading/controlling him. If he set out to murder his brother using dark magic he would of been evil, as it is he really should of known and the fact that he was pretty remorseless after it happened stands out. There is a whole main character devoted to saving the beloved Stannis from the evil witch. Qualify Stannis as a Hero or villian though, you just can't do it, he is not overtly evil, he is just fighting for what is his (his claim is the true one), so qualify him as a hero, well he has done way to many questionable things (wanting to sacrifice a nephew would be considered unheroic)...

Well, again I'll disagree (hate to be so disagreeable with someone as willing to discuss the series as you, jd - but as a wise man once said "it's the difference of opinion that makes horse races").

Stannis was indeed remorseful about Renly, but not because of his death per se. He was remorseful because he was forced into confronting his brother because of Renly's treachery. Yet he still loved him even in death. He tells Davos as much afterward, when they are riding alone and he recounts the story of how Renly pulled a peach from his vest when they met for their summit. He says something to the effect "I loved him, Davos, despite his treachery. I'll go to my grave thinking of that peach." Keep in mind Stannis is portrayed as a just man....THE just man. Renly was a traitor-in-arms who deserved and received death. Stannis' view is probably that his brother would not have been slain had he done his brotherly duty for Stannis - all part of R'hollar's master plan of which he is a pawn.

Stannis, while at times waivering, never wanted to give Edric Storm to Mel. At the best of times he actively spurned her wishes to sacrafice the boy, and in the worst of times he tells Davos that if he is forced to do it, it is because the boy MUST be killed or thousands of boys and girls just like him will equally suffer. He never takes any glee from the fact that the boy might have to be killed, and does everything he can to make sure the boy IS NOT killed (ie the leeches).

 

[jdavis]

Well, again I'll disagree (hate to be so disagreeable with someone as willing to discuss the series as you, jd - but as a wise man once said "it's the difference of opinion that makes horse races").

Stannis was indeed remorseful about Renly, but not because of his death per se. He was remorseful because he was forced into confronting his brother because of Renly's treachery. Yet he still loved him even in death. He tells Davos as much afterward, when they are riding alone and he recounts the story of how Renly pulled a peach from his vest when they met for their summit. He says something to the effect "I loved him, Davos, despite his treachery. I'll go to my grave thinking of that peach." Keep in mind Stannis is portrayed as a just man....THE just man. Renly was a traitor-in-arms who deserved and received death. Stannis' view is probably that his brother would not have been slain had he done his brotherly duty for Stannis - all part of R'hollar's master plan of which he is a pawn.

Stannis, while at times waivering, never wanted to give Edric Storm to Mel. At the best of times he actively spurned her wishes to sacrafice the boy, and in the worst of times he tells Davos that if he is forced to do it, it is because the boy MUST be killed or thousands of boys and girls just like him will equally suffer. He never takes any glee from the fact that the boy might have to be killed, and does everything he can to make sure the boy IS NOT killed (ie the leeches).

No be disagreeable all you like, good discussions are the only reason I am here, Just don't call me a idiot (which you may be thinking in this case because you are right, I forgot the Peach bit).

Stannis is prtrayed to be too strict and and concerned only with justice. It's almost like they want to show him as the Robocop of Westros, 100% by the rules regardless of what may be wrong or right or what his heart might want. That's why he isn't a villian, he honestly believes in the rightness of what he is doing. Davos is one of my favorite characters, he is sort of Stannis's conscious and heart. Davos is as much trying to save Stannis from himself as he is trying to save him from Melisandre. Stannis is so wrapped up in his right to be king that he almost misses the whole arguement that nobody else wants him to be king, and if it wasn't for Davos he would of never gotten it into his head that the problem is that nobody likes him, it was hard for him to understand that he was passed over for Renly because Renly had all the personallity. Now he is off to the North to do the right thing and prove that he should be King instead of bemoaning that 90% of the continent would be considered just as much of a traitor as his brother by his standards. The ends don't always justify the means, that is why he can't be judged a hero, he did things that were questionable and some that were downright wrong in order to push his claim to the throne. Renly was no more a traitor than everybody else who supported anybody but him as King, and instead of trying to convince people that they should support him he branded everybody a traitor for not doing so to start with. Once again a lot of that can be laid at Melisandre's feet. He is definatly not a evil character but he is equally not a heroic character, he is a character in flux between a raving madman who is only concerned about his claim to the throne, and a man who has the best interest of the Kingdom at heart.

 

[RyanL]

Not the first time through, but I will look for that subtext the second time around - I am just starting ACoK.

By the way, you are correct - Loras Tyrell is the "Knight of Flowers". It would be his brother in law, too, by his brief marraige to Margeary Tyrell.

During the parley between Renly, Stannis, and Catelyn, at the siege of Storm's End, Stannis makes a comment to the effect that Margeary will remain a maid so long as she shares a bed with Renly.

-Ryan

 

[King_Stannis]

No be disagreeable all you like, good discussions are the only reason I am here, Just don't call me a idiot (which you may be thinking in this case because you are right, I forgot the Peach bit).

Stannis is prtrayed to be too strict and and concerned only with justice. It's almost like they want to show him as the Robocop of Westros, 100% by the rules regardless of what may be wrong or right or what his heart might want. That's why he isn't a villian, he honestly believes in the rightness of what he is doing. Davos is one of my favorite characters, he is sort of Stannis's conscious and heart. Davos is as much trying to save Stannis from himself as he is trying to save him from Melisandre. Stannis is so wrapped up in his right to be king that he almost misses the whole arguement that nobody else wants him to be king, and if it wasn't for Davos he would of never gotten it into his head that the problem is that nobody likes him, it was hard for him to understand that he was passed over for Renly because Renly had all the personallity. Now he is off to the North to do the right thing and prove that he should be King instead of bemoaning that 90% of the continent would be considered just as much of a traitor as his brother by his standards. The ends don't always justify the means, that is why he can't be judged a hero, he did things that were questionable and some that were downright wrong in order to push his claim to the throne. Renly was no more a traitor than everybody else who supported anybody but him as King, and instead of trying to convince people that they should support him he branded everybody a traitor for not doing so to start with. Once again a lot of that can be laid at Melisandre's feet. He is definatly not a evil character but he is equally not a heroic character, he is a character in flux between a raving madman who is only concerned about his claim to the throne, and a man who has the best interest of the Kingdom at heart.

I can agree with most of that, other than the part about Renly not being any more a traitor than the other self proclaimed kings. There is just something especially wrong and treacherous going against your own blood, which is exactly what Renly did - for pure, unbridled ambition. At least Stannis views it as a duty that he must do....he even says something like "want has nothing to do with it, Davos....".

But you have good points about Stannis there. I think he's one of the most complex characters in the books. From the way his parents death had an affect on him to the way he uses and is used by Mel, and everything in between. Some of the things he says are just amazingly profound and, at times, cruel. No small wonder, then, that I chose him as my ID!

 

[jdavis]

I have a fondness of Jon Snow, the bumbling hero, whoops I saved the world again. He really has no ambition at all but to save the world and do what's right. How many times has he been tempted with the promise of a little respect and happiness in his life only to turn it down to do his duty to wall. He's just a real likable guy who always tries to keep his oath, no matter how much better he could have it otherwise.

It's hard not to like the dwarf too, talk about always being the underdog.