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Decline of RPG sales

WizarDru

Adventurer
jgbrowning said:
He's right in that it's OOP in the distribution channel. I have a personal stash of about 30 at home that I'm selling down and that's it. I could have put the 30 back into the channel, but that would have just led to more headaches for the distributors and retailers.

Oh, I dig...I just meant that he could still order a printed copy if he wanted. Which I think he did. I can say, without hyperbole, that it is the ONLY D&D related book that I have read completely cover-to-cover since the core 3. And that it is one of the most useful reference tomes written for DMs. EVAR.

John Nephew said:
'm pretty confident that I have a handle on these things, but I suppose it's possible that we've just been lucky, or that if we'd stayed focused on d20 (and made strategic changes to compete more aggressively in that category) we would have done just as well. Looking at the industry landscape today, even among the biggest survivors in the d20 space, I just don't believe it.

Well, I think you know your business much better than I do. But I think there are separate discussions there: a decline in the RPG industry, a decline in the d20 market therein and a decline for the non-Wotc d20 market. I'm sure if you'd stayed solely in the d20 market, you would have been in dire circumstances. But if WotC has record sales, I think that upsets the overall applecart, perspective-wise, and that maybe the source of the disconnect. I certainly think there's been a serious decline in the a large segment of the RPG market...but overall it's difficult to tell the effect on the WotC's and WW's of the world, especially when they claim to be doing well. Take them out the of the equation, and the numbers change a great deal, I'd imagine.
 

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JohnNephew

First Post
Thanks for the nice words about ArM5.

buzz said:
Dare I ask how Northern Crown is doing?

Editorially speaking, I'm really pleased with the books, and very happy to have done them. As for sales, they have been about what I expected. They couldn't exist but for the fact that Doug Anderson created it as a labor of love (both as a writer and and artist), and Michelle and I were both so impressed with the setting that we wanted to see it in print regardless of the profitability or lack thereof.

In terms of comparative numbers -- the two Northern Crown volumes have each sold more than the last of the Penumbra titles did (that was Seven Civilizations, published in September 2004), which is a good thing and speaks well of the books' quality and appeal. However, they've sold less than any of the adventures or supplements we've published for Ars Magica 5th Edition.
 

JohnNephew

First Post
JoeGKushner said:
Heck I'm glad that we have Gloom and Happy Homes! A nice little card game even though it has some production problems. Any future sets forthcoming or other sets using a similiar layout? (the quality seems to have gone up in Happy Homes so I'm thinkin it's gone up again!)

The reprint + Unhappy Homes have still had a lot of problems with production, unfortunately. Some improvements we were able to do have helped (such as the change of typeface to increase legibility on the rules box on each card), but I still spend too much time sending people repacements for cards that are illegible. I wish our printer was giving us the quality of, say, Hecatomb. If the sales remain strong, though, we may be able to do future runs at volumes that would allow us to hit economy of scale with other printers who might have better quality control or superior technology.

There is a future set in the works -- "Unwelcome Guests." Keith Baker sent us a first draft card list just this past week, and I think he's going to try it out on some hapless victims at GenConSoCal this weekend.

JoeGKushner said:
Or how about a boxed set collection of Dungeoneer?

At a future point in the lifecycle, this is something that would be fun to do (like, when multiple sets are out of print at the same time, and we might just bundle them all together in a new and bigger package, perhaps with other trinkets like figures for the characters rather than cardboard cut-outs). Probably not until a few years from now, though...
 

JoeGKushner

First Post
JohnNephew said:
There is a future set in the works -- "Unwelcome Guests." Keith Baker sent us a first draft card list just this past week, and I think he's going to try it out on some hapless victims at GenConSoCal this weekend.

Great news.


JohnNephew said:
At a future point in the lifecycle, this is something that would be fun to do (like, when multiple sets are out of print at the same time, and we might just bundle them all together in a new and bigger package, perhaps with other trinkets like figures for the characters rather than cardboard cut-outs). Probably not until a few years from now, though...

Hmmm... perhaps you could team up with Fantasy Flight Games or have them do a board game version of it? Their tolkeens in Doom and that new board game they have, are fantastic and combined with the great visuals of Dungeonner, would be a great set to have.
 

rgard

Adventurer
BelenUmeria said:
So I thought this may deserve its own thread rather than be lost in the file sharing argument. Here are my thoughts and opinions. Feel free to roast me...

I think you are ignoring one fact: The sheer volume of d20 garbage released.

If anything is causing the decline in RPG sales, it would be the large volume of material available. The variety of books and companies are killing sales. Other than WOTC, no other company can create a large enough fan base for d20 material. Non-d20 material can create a larger base because they are not competing with other companies plus the crazy PDF publishers in places like RPGnow.

Here are some of the reasons I see contributing to the decline of d20 and RPG sales:

1.) Market size vs. # of Producers: We have too many companies producing too many games for a limited audience.

2.) Older audience: No company, including WOTC, has found a way to market and sell to a younger audience. D&D is no longer in the public eye. It is more like the old anime of scifi clubs that you find on college campuses. People find the game by accident rather than design. Also, an older audience buys less books. They have limited time to play multiple games.

3.) New media: MMORPGs, CCGs, and PC games have eroded the existing audience and stolen the potential audience.

4.) Advertising: No one promotes the hobby. We promote it to ourselves.

5.) Shared experience: There is a lack of shared experience. Companies promote their IP, even WOTC. We see a lot of drive to pormote Eberron or FR, but very little to promote D&D.

6.) Standards or lack thereof: d20 publishers would have been wise to cooperate and create a list of standards for books such formats etc. I am surprised that we never saw a development company or editing company form. There is a need for such a centralized company that could promote standards or evaluate books.

7.) Development and release schedules: Too many companies announce books and then fail to release on schedule or in a timely manner. It sucks to wait a year for a book and a book is sometimes off your schedule by the time it is released.

8.) Know you audience: A lot of companies do not know their audience. They are run by gamers who produce what they think is cool rather than what people want. When I was working for a d20 company, this was a problem. We never attempted to ask what people wanted and then produce it. We kinda thought we knew and just wrote what we wanted to write.

FLGS owner here. Haven't seen a drop in RPG sales here, but keep in mind I've only been in business since March this year.

Most of the youngins coming in are looking for Yu-Gi-Oh or MtG cards...then they see the Star Wars and D&D minis...they get Mom or Dad to buy some, then it's a slippery slope to buying and playing RPGs.

We have 2 Star Wars and 3 D&D and 2 D20 Modern campaigns played here during the week. Over half the players never RPG'd a pencil and paper RPG prior to visiting my store.

Doing my best here to keep the hobby alive...and pay the rent.

Thanks,
Rich
 

rgard

Adventurer
rgard said:
FLGS owner here. Haven't seen a drop in RPG sales here, but keep in mind I've only been in business since March this year.

Most of the youngins coming in are looking for Yu-Gi-Oh or MtG cards...then they see the Star Wars and D&D minis...they get Mom or Dad to buy some, then it's a slippery slope to buying and playing RPGs.

We have 2 Star Wars and 3 D&D and 2 D20 Modern campaigns played here during the week. Over half the players never RPG'd a pencil and paper RPG prior to visiting my store.

Doing my best here to keep the hobby alive...and pay the rent.

Thanks,
Rich

One other insight to this. Tell a parent that RPG's are cooperative games that require the players to work together rather than try to beat/annihilate each other...that gets a smile and a probable sale.
 

pogre

Legend
What the industry really needs is a shot of sizzling excitement! Bring on 4th edition baby!!! The sooner the better.
 


philreed

Adventurer
Supporter
pogre said:
What the industry really needs is a shot of sizzling excitement! Bring on 4th edition baby!!! The sooner the better.

I suspect your wish will come true soon enough. :)

While you wait, though, keep your eyes open for those shooting stars. May as well have some backup wishes in place just to be certain it comes true.
 

Warbringer

Explorer
Joshua Dyal said:
AND NOW THE SKY IS FALLING!!!11

Why does the shy have to be falling just because sales are down, and they are, despite brand manager comments.

D+D mini sales have bolstered the D+D brand sales, and Eberron releases have boosted campaign sales. Expansion books have suffered the same malaise that has affected 3rd party products.

This cycle decline is normal at this stage of a product life that doesn't have an accelerated at the point of inflection. Simply, after a growth spurt an opportunity for a nother spurt was missed and sales slowed alittle.
 

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