Decline of RPG sales

Belen

Adventurer
JoeGKushner said:
We should kill them and take their stuff! :p

But there is still a ton of stuff out there for free. Heck, even the official publishers put out a lot of stuff for free. Not seeing the issue with this bit here outside of maybe saying that because they're not brick and morter publishers that they should just be publishing it for free when people are willing to pay for it. Curse you Phil Reed, the mind control devices are working!

I am not really referencing people such as Phil Reed. I like, and buy, his stuff. However, there is a glut of material that is competing for dollars.
 

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buzz

Adventurer
BelenUmeria said:
If anything, the hobby needs a organization that remains untied to the publishers that is capable of generating longterm interest in the hobby.
WotC is pretty much the only entity with enough resources to have any impact. Maybe WW, too. A non-profit "Society for the Furtherance of Gaming" is an unrealistic hope, IMO. I'm not sure it's even necessary.

BelenUmeria said:
The publishers are not doing it and we have way too many "fans" who think they are publishers who are producing a lot of material and causing a glut in the market by competing for money.

There was a time when most of these people would publish the items on the web for free. Now we have a million PDF producers for a tiny market.
And the ones that can't survive, won't. Competition is what markets are all about.

If there's anything wrong with the RPG industry, a plethora of PDF products available for purchase is not it.
 

Kanegrundar

Explorer
BelenUmeria said:
I am not really referencing people such as Phil Reed. I like, and buy, his stuff. However, there is a glut of material that is competing for dollars.
Most of which goes ignored and unbought, so while they may be technically competeing with the Phil Reeds of the PDF market, they really aren't.
 

buzz

Adventurer
(Thinks some more about this.)

BelenUmeria said:
If anything, the hobby needs a organization that remains untied to the publishers that is capable of generating longterm interest in the hobby.
This is also conflating discussion about the industry with discussion about the hobby. Which is pretty much par for the course when discussions like these come up.
 

JohnNephew

First Post
JoeGKushner said:
Or if someone points out something positive how those are all exceptions and that D&D CANNOT be doing as well as they claim it is and they must, despite saying they're not, be counting the miniatures into their RPG numbers.

I participate in a private industry forum where there are monthly polls on retailer sales. Month after month after month this year, the numbers have been weighted on the downside.

I read Comics & Games Retailer every month, as I have for years. Consistently, the numbers reported by retailers for RPGs have been reflecting declining sales. I'm looking right now at the September 2005 issue. While one must take C&GR's numbers with a grain of salt (due to issues of methodology, sample size, etc.), you can see a pretty clear pattern -- there's a graph of average monthly sales of the reporting stores' best selling RPGs. The month of April 2005 is lower than any previous month on the graph (going back to July 2001), May is lower, and June (the month with the new numbers in this issue) is lower again. Not just down from a peak, but the lowest numbers reported in the past four years; not just for d20, but for all RPGs.

Like I said, there's lots of reason to handle C&GR numbers with caution, but what is reported there is in synch with what I have heard from retailers, distributors, and other publishers.

If you look at the publishing schedules of the major and minor players in RPGs and more particularly in d20, over the past two or three years, there are some patterns to be seen. Maybe these patterns are not at all apparent to the end consumer, who perhaps does not read the distributor catalogs each month and compile a mental graph of who is producing how many titles in which areas over the years. If you walk into a game store, you see a big pile of d20 books, most of which you've probably never seen before; so it must be still booming, right? Ask the retailer what his turn rate on d20 inventory has been this year, versus last year, versus the year before; ask how many titles they pre-order today on a new d20 release from a major publisher, versus one, two, or three years ago; what their average monthly buy is in the RPG category now versus the past.

For a while, I actually charted the number of new d20 products solicited each month in Game Trade Magazine, to understand what was going on. At the same time that retailers and distributors were starting to sound warnings about a glut in product and talking about paring back on their pre-orders, publishers were still increasing the number of releases...it was clear that this was headed for a crash. At the time, some publishers who were churning out the releases were often still claiming that business had never been better, each book sold more than the one before, and so on. At a Christmas party one year, a distributor told me that he had ordered 100 copies of a new book from one well-known d20 publisher...and sold less than 10. So maybe the publishers thought they were doing great, and didn't realize that this distributor was likely to cut his pre-order on their next book by 90%. Eventually, those slashed distributor orders resulted in inevitable consequences: delayed and cancelled books, and reduced production schedules.

If somebody wants to chart this out, here's a simple way to analyze the market situation in an empirical manner: Take the top 10 d20 publishers (to eliminate debates over who might have been just doing it as a hobby rather than a business or whatever else), and total up the number of products they have released each month, going back to August of 2000. Anyone want to take it on? It would not be conclusive, but it would provide an objective set of data that would at least provide insight into publishers' willingness to invest in new RPG titles, which should bear a meaningful relation to how well the category is doing.

The ideal way to do it would be to compile the weekly receiving reports of a major distributor -- that would reflect what actually was delivered to a distributor warehouse and released to the market, as opposed to what was announced and solicited but may never have been published (conversely, in a hot market products sometimes get released without advance solicitation -- a publisher churns something out on short notice and needs orders sooner than the 3-4 month catalog pre-order cycle).
 

Glyfair

Explorer
tf360 said:
The basis for this opinion comes from a conversation I had with several longtime industry insider/distributor. The theory was that an rpg store needs to be in one of three areas. And in this day and age, rpg stores still account for a large percentage of sales.

1) population base of 50,000+
2) close proximity to a military base
3) close proximity to a college campus.

The first is fairly static, but the second two are not. With a large percentage of military personnel overseas and/or actively engaged in combat, rpg's are going to suffer.

Indeed, Ryan Dancey recently mused that this was a large reason for the "bottom dropping out of the market." A good percentage of the customer base is overseas in Iraq. Also, another related segment is having financial problems, the immediate family of those overseas.

But I think that the competitor that's really hurting rpg's is online and casino poker.

My understanding from one of my local FLGS owners is that it seems the poker boom is starting to go down. People are still playing, but it's reached the point where sales of poker products are way, way down.
 

Glyfair

Explorer
wedgeski said:
And yet in theory they have more disposable income as they get older. I know that's true for me and most of my gaming friends, anyway. I buy things now that I wouldn't even consider buying when I was 15 and dreaded a new Monstrous Compendium Appendix because I knew I wouldn't be able to afford it.

Except, they tend to have less, often much less disposable time. In my experience, most of the players I've gotten to play D&D recently have been in the teenage years (mostly from other games). They have the time to play, and get the "disposable income" from their parents (a side effect of this tends to be that they are often the spoiled children who come into the game).
 

Glyfair

Explorer
BryonD said:
But sales are still down for good stuff. I buy less stuff now because there is so much less that I need.

When d20 products first came out, I bought all of them. I'm buying very little now (admittedly,some of that is personal financial hardships - but not that much). The main reason for me is compatability.

I found I wasn't using the 3rd party products because they often weren't compatible. Book A would have some good ideas I'd like to use. Book B would have other ideas I'd like in that area, but they didn't work with Book A's ideas. Plus, I'd only be using a fraction of things from a dozen books, which caused all sorts of checking and referencing between a dozen books.

Sure, I could site down and reconcile the differences and tie them into my campaign. However, at this time in my life, I don't have time for that. Building a campaign and adventures takes enough time out of me, I don't have any extra to build something from a mish-mash of products.

Right now, I mostly buy WotC products. If I buy a 3rd party product, it's because I want to use everything in the product for my campaign (for example, if I decided I wanted a pirate series, I'd likely pick up a book on seafaring adventures).

Now, my choice of campaign setting has something to do with the WotC dominance. I love Eberron, and have focused on things that work there. If I choose to run in the Diamond Throne campaign, then I would focus on those products. Still, my purchases would still be limited to those that directly tie into that, and those I want to use completely.
 

philreed

Adventurer
Supporter
BelenUmeria said:
There was a time when most of these people would publish the items on the web for free.

I used to produce a healthy amount of free stuff. I stopped when I realized that only 1 in 1000 people took the time to e-mail a simple "thanks" to me. Even the free stuff I've released this year has generated very, very few "thank you" messages.
 

philreed

Adventurer
Supporter
Kanegrundar said:
Most of which goes ignored and unbought, so while they may be technically competeing with the Phil Reeds of the PDF market, they really aren't.

But they are taking up valuable space and make it harder for people new to PDFs to know what is worth spending money on. And we can't forget about the people that buy a few PDFs, hate them, and swear off of PDFs. This exact problem has seriously impacted the M&M Superlink license -- I regularly encounter people that hated some early purchases and refuse to buy anything for Mutants & Masterminds that isn't published by Green Ronin.
 

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