Defeated by puzzle - campaign over: Here is the offending puzzle!

[AdmundfortGeographer]

Well, I've stared at it long enough. I'll keep staring to a bit more just because unsolved puzzles grab me.

But my mind has been grappling with two potentials. First, this was meant to not be solved and trap the PCs to end the campaign intentionally. Sounds like the DM was just as disappointed the players couldn't solve it though.

My second idea, leave it blank, as is. *shrug*

 

[Ds Da Man]

Actually, I may have overacted a little with this also. If you guys like your DM, and are happy with the way things went, good for you! I hope you all have fun in the next campaign!

 

[Roman]

And I want Roman to call this DM and not wait until Friday to get the answer.. and I know it's Good to Want.. *grin*

Alright, I am a student and do not have a phone, but tomorrow evening I will go out, find a phone, and call the former DM.

Though I tend to think Roman doth protest to much when trying to get us to stop bashing his DM, when he wrote two seperate threads on the subject including the ending puzzle in question. It sounds like fair grumbling.. but accept it Roman.. this behavior on the DM's part, that was conveyed to you, upon which you've conveyed to us.. is almost a wash.. and you've heard tons of people say they wouldn't accept that for their entertainment.

Well, the first thread was started, because I was rather dissappointed that the campaign might (at that point it was likely but not certain) end with a puzzle and I wanted to know if it ever happened to many other people too. The second thread I promised to start in the first thread - to post the actual puzzle. So yes, I certainly was dissappointed that the campaign ended that way, but we had a year of good fun with it, so he cannot be a bad DM - in fact running an enjoyable campaign for a year indicates good DMing even if the end is this ignominous.

 

[Roman]

Roman,

I am one of those that called 'bad DM'. And I stand by that. He had to know that entering that temple meant death, since he knew that puzzle was there. It would be the same if the door magically shut, and 10 ancient red dragons appeared and killed everyone first round.

Tomb of Horrors had a 'doorway' that was a sphere of annihilation, but at least you could detect it a number of ways, and you could successully avoid it, and even if you didn't, it would only kill one (or two).

He may be a great DM in some ways, but a great DM that occasionally TPK's without a chance to avoid it, is still a bad DM in my book. Now, you guys seem to like playing with him, so that is cool. I just think you like playing with a bad DM.

Granted, you guys had the chance to leave after the first few rooms; and so the players are also guilty. But there should have been lots of clues that it wasn't just 'hard', but actually impossible. And with that puzzle, that makes it impossible. Even the 10 red dragons would have been 'easier'.


And I think there is a notable difference between 'coddling' the players so that they can never die, and placing CR 1,000 traps that they can't solve or bypass.

I do see what you mean, but I also think that the DM expected us to be able to solve the puzzle and merely miscalculated and did not realize just how difficult it would prove to be. I am certainly dissapointed that we failed to solve the puzzle, but I think it was a combination of miscalculation of our abilities at puzzle solving rather than bad DMing if you see what I mean.

 

[Roman]

Tried some algabraic stuff...I failed.

Now, my methodology could have been wrong...

Yeah, we tried shifting pattens, jumping patterns, assigning values to the symbols, making the symbols into equations with unkowns (both rows and columns), etc. but failed to get very far. Who knows, maybe it is something so obvious that we are all missing it. Than again, that seems unlikely considering the number of people who have now seen the puzzle.

 

[Gorrstagg]

Alright, I am a student and do not have a phone, but tomorrow evening I will go out, find a phone, and call the former DM.

Well, the first thread was started, because I was rather dissappointed that the campaign might (at that point it was likely but not certain) end with a puzzle and I wanted to know if it ever happened to many other people too. The second thread I promised to start in the first thread - to post the actual puzzle. So yes, I certainly was dissappointed that the campaign ended that way, but we had a year of good fun with it, so he cannot be a bad DM - in fact running an enjoyable campaign for a year indicates good DMing even if the end is this ignominous.

See, this is where I really feel for you Roman. To end a enjoyable campaign.. with such a blunt method.. makes me feel bad for you and the other players.

Now, I myself, have let campaigns that the players were really enjoying end. Because, as a DM I wasn't inspired anymore with the direction the PC's were constantly going. I gave them really enjoyable and memorable times.. and they still fondly talk of their pc's.. but I honestly got burned out with the campaign.

And it had a bit to do with me, simply getting burned out, and the players having characters, that in the end, often didn't care about good or evil. They had very little hooks to pull them with. And often I jokingly referred to them as morally bankrupt.

But they played their characters very well.. and I ran a very entertaining campaign for them. Though when I look back on it, it was a very grandiose campaign, and also realize that they weren't really inspired to do anything.

Which falls on to me as the DM to find that hook, and them to create that hook for me to follow.

But I was able to learn from the time I had taken off.. and got recharged, and got re-energized.. that in order for me as a DM to proceed.. I need hooks that will logically pull the players.. so that I don't put them in situations they wouldn't give a damn about.

But what does that have to do with your DM? Not a lot I guess.. because we don't know why he let the campaign end.

And it's not terribly fair for us to really bash him.. on that I will agree.. despite how I felt over the last few days. Because the truth is.. we don't know why he was willing to let it end. Maybe y'all didn't have the right hooks for him to go with, maybe he was literally trying to tell a dark story with the heroes losing in the end.

(Though I like stories where the hero fights and dies.. and doesn't succeed at their task.. I like to give them the fighting chance to accomplish it somehow.)

I guess it's a usual gaming variable. We don't know what the cause was, that lead to the effect of a unsolvable puzzle.

As an aside, I actually participated once with a friend in a one shot grand evening session, that involved two parties of players, who were going to be fighting it out in the end for the win.. but to get to that end, we all had to go through a riddle.. in the very beginning.

Now, the group that I was a part of, had something like 8 players.. and one dm.. the other group had a similiar number of players and one DM.. so our little group ends up walking up to the story beginning.. and get presented with a riddle.

The only way to proceed with the story at all... was to solve the riddle.. now.. your probably figuring that say after an hour of sitting there.. trying to solve this riddle.. the DM would at least let us attempt Intelligence tests.. and he did.. and I got a natural twenty.. with my +5 intelligence modifier.. that was a 25! Everyone around the table looked really happy.. then the DM.. repeated what he had said before, whenever we started to ask about clues.. He told us the riddle again.

Now.. this guy wouldn't budge.. and I was getting more and more aggravated with this.. here I was to enjoy a supposedly great session.. with lots of people playing.. and after an hour and a half.. still no one had an answer.. and yet he still wouldn't budge..

I realize that most people would of gotten up and walked away. Got in their cars and left.. but at the time I was a ride-share hostage.. and couldn't quite do that.

So I eventually actually came up with an acceptable answer, though it used modern vernacular to accomplish.. and was really stretching the riddle to the lengths..

But after that.. I pretty much determined that I will NEVER use such a tool in my DMing.. and I still think that the DM was a massive butt nugget.. But.. I still keep that information regarding who this person was private because well.. though he deserved the appropriate derision.. sometimes it's more the lesson learned that is important.

(Oh and that lesson we learned besides the don't use riddles, was that the DM we had was a jackass who when people would specifically ask about things, having picked up on his little personal clues wouldn't actually reward said players.. yet the other DM in the other room, when presented with the same situations, did.. so needless to say.. our group of players were beat, because we were supposed to load up on the stuff that they had acquired.. that we really also should of had.. that and they were given very specific advantages, over our side.. so through out the whole thing we were never really supposed to win.. which sucks)

Oh and another lesson learned besides not using riddles.. that just because someone is quite popular and important in some gaming circles.. and communities.. it isn't always deserved.. and sometimes people will take crap because they don't know better...

Grrrr... sorry for the offtangent conversation.

 

[Plane Sailing]

I've deleted a few posts which were resurrecting personal sniping that occurred earlier in the thread. As Pie has already said, there is no need for that folks.

I'm looking forward to hearing from Romans DM on this puzzle...

Cheers

 

[Dark Dragon]

Hm, what about this: Each symbol represents a number that is linked to another number (with a different symbol of course), something like Phytagoras' formula: a^2 = b^2 + c^2.

I'm not really good at maths, but that just idea came to my mind (because I remember that dice puzzle Petals around the Rose, that also uses a mathematic formula...still, I'm not 100% sure if I solved that correctly :\ ). Unfortunately, I have no time to calculate it for the whole puzzle. Hmmmm, any Excel professionals out there?

 

[arscott]

Hm, what about this: Each symbol represents a number that is linked to another number (with a different symbol of course), something like Phytagoras' formula: a^2 = b^2 + c^2.

I'm not really good at maths, but that just idea came to my mind (because I remember that dice puzzle Petals around the Rose, that also uses a mathematic formula...still, I'm not 100% sure if I solved that correctly :\ ). Unfortunately, I have no time to calculate it for the whole puzzle. Hmmmm, any Excel professionals out there?

Er, your way off on petals. While the means of arriving at the solution might be expressed as a math formula, the solution itself is far less algebraic.

 

[Dark Dragon]

Er, your way off on petals. While the means of arriving at the solution might be expressed as a math formula, the solution itself is far less algebraic.

As usual...it is always simple if you know the solution.
I found the rose-and-petal puzzle online somewhere in the net, so, if any computer can calculate the solution, it must use maths, ergo: the way to solve it must be a logical one...