Dennis Rodman Monsters

[Fishbone]

I have a few bones to pick with the CR system. One of them being the goofy assumption that an NPC character with levels equals a CR appropriate to that level.
The other main beef is the "Dennis Rodman monster". Remember Dennis, the crossdressing psycho rebound machine for the Pistons and Bulls?
Anyhow, he wrote a book called "As Bad As I Want To Be" and thats the point I want to address. The monsters are as bad as the DM wants them to be.
For instance, lets take a dragon. Any dragon from CR 14+ should be a total party kill if run properly. d12 super-statted sorcerers with cunning, wisdom, and centuries of experience with the amount of broken spells and material in things like the Draconomicon and 3rd party books means that if the DM doesn't manage to kill at least half the party he isn't playing the Dragon to its fullest.
But plenty of parties have survived dragon encounters because the DM runs them like softies. An optimally ran casting creature should chew a party up and spit it out every time.

 

[Plane Sailing]

For instance, lets take a dragon. Any dragon from CR 14+ should be a total party kill if run properly. d12 super-statted sorcerers with cunning, wisdom, and centuries of experience with the amount of broken spells and material in things like the Draconomicon and 3rd party books means that if the DM doesn't manage to kill at least half the party he isn't playing the Dragon to its fullest.

How about if a CR14 dragon is run 'properly' against a party of four 20th level characters? I can't see him being much more than a speed bump.

Even with all the power and staying power that a dragon has, he is limited in his actions compared to a whole party, and actions is where the problems are.

An CR14 dragon against a party of 14th level characters could certainly give them a very tough fight - but a CR14 blue dragon (adult) is only a 5th level caster (2nd level spells max) and he has spell resistance of 21. The 14th level PCs will get past his spell resistance on 7+ on a d20 even without any Spell Penetration feats, and one targeted dispel is likely to take down all its buffs. Magically it is no challenge for the 14th level party, and it has to rely upon its physical attacks to really do much in the way of damage (sadly it isn't even big enough to use Snatch effectively).

Cheers

 

[Numion]

But plenty of parties have survived dragon encounters because the DM runs them like softies. An optimally ran casting creature should chew a party up and spit it out every time.

Not necessarily. When my players confronted a great wyrm red dragon they were prepared with energy immunity spells (and bunch of other boosting spells) and one cleric was casting mass heals almost every round.

The problem with big baddies is that there's just one of them (means one action per round) and 4 or more of the PCs (means more actions per round). Also a dragon of certain CR probably has less caster levels than the PCs hacking it, so the spell advantage is on the PCs (in spell levels as well as spells / round). Also, the higher level PCs generally will dispel half the dragons spells with single greater dispel.

The broken spells are also available to PCs (except for dragon specific ones).

EDIT: yeah, what PS said .. I didn't notice his post before my reply.

 

[Fishbone]

A creature with Grapple at 37 before buffs and feats and attacks at 27 before buffs and feats, 241 HP and 150 feet of flying movement can't use Snatch effectively? What?

 

[hong]

A creature with Grapple at 37 before buffs and feats and attacks at 27 before buffs and feats, 241 HP and 150 feet of flying movement can't use Snatch effectively? What?

Snatch only works on creatures 3 sizes smaller than the dragon. A CR 14 dragon is Huge, so it can only snatch Small or smaller creatures.

Me, I'm wondering what started this fetish of invincible dragons. In 1E they weren't even at the top of the food chain: assorted demons and devils held that spot. Heck, the 1E MM even gave rules for capturing ("subduing") a dragon.

 

[Numion]

A creature with Grapple at 37 before buffs and feats and attacks at 27 before buffs and feats, 241 HP and 150 feet of flying movement can't use Snatch effectively? What?

Can snatch, unless of course someone has freedom of movement (+20 to grapple IIRC). Once the grapple succeeds, there are still rest of the adventurers to deal with. Depending on the situation, being considered grappled might open the dragon to a world of hurt (like, if there's an order of the bow initiate close by, or anyone else with sneak attack and decent to-hit.)

 

[ShinHakkaider]

In the context presented I have to agree with some of the other posters in the thread a CR 14 Dragon is going to be nothing to a party of prepared adventurers.

But my favorite action movies are the ones where the heroes have to usually fight through layer after layer of minions and threats before they get to the main bad guy. DIE HARD, ALIENS, LETHAL WEAPON all examples of how the heroes get roughed up before they meet the main villian and do battle.

IMHO there are few things that a well prepared party with available splatbooks cant overcome (barring REALLY unlucky die rolls) one on one (or in this case one on four) the trick is the proper use of minions, terrain and misinformation. A blue dragon (if it's aware that the PC's are coming) should be laying traps for the PC's in it's terrain. Make the PC's go into the desert after that sucker. Have the dragon dig sandtraps (because all true dragons can burrow, and apparently living under the sand isnt that much of an issue for them, the PC's not so much...), use its wings to create sandstorms, blind and disorient the PC's. There's a good book by Fantasy Flight Games called Wildscape. I think it's written by some d00d named Mike Mearls, use the enviornmental effects in there against the PC's in coordination with the stuff in the Draconomicon. Even if the PC's survive the encounter they'll be thinking twice about confronting a dragon on it's own terrain.

The thing about PC's is that you have to MAKE them respect thier adversaries. Don't hold back, unless youre one of those DM's that think that killing PC's is BAD and WRONG and the sign of a BAD DM. My thing is that this dragon has survived this long, he's faced other prepared adventurers before, he/she is smart and has lived a long time through a combination of guile and strength. If it knows that a group is coming after it (vis minions and/or other means) it's not going to willingly put itself in a position to be killed. Would the PCs do that? Nope. Remember Jaws? The shark leads the crew of the Orca out of the shallow water of the coast where it had been feeding and into the middle of the ocean onto HIS terrain and keeps up a constant campaign of harrasment until the crew begins to run out of options and are forced to into a situation where they actually have to go underwater to try and kill the shark (which ends pretty badly).

If the Dragon looks like it's going to get beat, have it pull away. Lead the PC's (who will be no doubt feeling confident, perhaps overly so) into a situation that will drain thier resources. At worst the PC's will realize what the dragon is doing and back off. The dragon will live to fight another day and will be familiar enough with the PC's as not to underestimate them a second time. There are like a million ways to make Dragon encounters entertaining, I tend to not treat them just like any other monster becasue they are not. Dungeons & DRAGONS d00d...

 

[Fishbone]

Okay, another example as the dragon strength issue is pretty contentious.
You ever get wrecked by goblins or flumphs or kobolds and find yourself going "What the hell just happened?"
Its not because the bugbear is the baddest humanoid in all the land, its because the DM took it as a challenge to make a lowly creature humble the party. He wanted everyone to know that he WEARS THE VIKING HAT so he humped your hams with Krenshars and Fehiyrs.
I think we've all been there.

 

[frankthedm]

Snatch only works on creatures 3 sizes smaller than the dragon. A CR 14 dragon is Huge, so it can only snatch Small or smaller creatures.

Actually, No. Snatch works as improved grab, one size smaller. The next sentence says the grabbing appendage’s damage is dealt automatically if the victim is 3 sizes smaller. The wording confused even myself for a long time.

Snatch [General]
Prerequisite: Size Huge or larger.
Benefits: The creature can choose to start a grapple when it hits with a claw or bite attack, as though it had the improved grab special attack. If the creature gets a hold on a creature three or more sizes smaller, it squeezes each round for automatic bite or claw damage. A snatched opponent held in the creature’s mouth is not allowed a Reflex save against the creature’s breath weapon, if it has one.

The creature can drop a creature it has snatched as a free action or use a standard action to fling it aside. A flung creature travels 1d6 × 10 feet, and takes 1d6 points of damage per 10 feet traveled. If the creature flings a snatched opponent while flying, the opponent takes this amount or falling damage, whichever is greater.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Actually, No. Snatch works as improved grab, one size smaller. The next sentence says the grabbing appendage’s damage is dealt automatically if the victim is 3 sizes smaller. The wording confused even myself for a long time.

Interesting observation Frank, I'd also misread that slightly. I can't wait to run a Huge dragon again now!