Dervish of Sairundan

[Knight Otu]

For the sake of simplicity, why not just ask for bardic music to be a requirement and to have the dervish class add to bardic music? It would make things so much simplier.

Since I don't want the bardic part of the class be the main focus of the class, or be mechanically big. It would detract too much from the warrior part of the class.
Also, I don't want it to be bardic music, but spreading bardic music. Slight difference.

For songs of the blade, you could allow the Dervish to add his bardic knowledge modifier for the roll, if any.

Not quite sure about that. Since, as a skill check. it is more or less a level-based check already, adding another level based variable might make the check more complicated, and quite possibly too easy. It's of course not meant to be very hard, but it should be a bit challenging for the higher-powered items.

For storm fury, you could change it instead to Whirlwind Attack, I think it goes more in hand with the PrC's focus, but that is just me.

Obviously, I disagree.
Some of the Sairundani elemental superstitions are linked to the six ability scores, and part of that is that Air is strong, swift and persuasive (and not enduring, smart or wise). The wind's and storm's fury abilities are somewhat of a mixture of air being swift and strong.

As a sidethought to this, you could change the required feats to Lightining reflexes and that feat that grants you bonus on atheltic skills, that way, sprint attack and whirlwing attack will look nicier as rewards.

You mean, replace Dodge and Mobility for Lightning Reflexes and Athletic, or two other feats? I'm certainly open to some changes in the prerequisites, though I do feel that the current two feats provide a better picture of the class.

 

[Erekose13]

If I had any say, I'd give it a yes. I think it looks well balanced as it is.

Though I agree that the Whirlwind Attack does make sense and could easily fit in there, I bet a dervish would choose to take it anyways.

As far as other suggested changes to the class, I would suggest that the AC bonus is a dodge bonus thus it would stack with everything but be lost when flat-footed (or other cases where dodge bonuses are lost).

I like the support the bard features of this class, they are not too strong that they would be unbalanced nor are they so important to the class that they would be missed if there was no bard in the group.

With this class, the Dualist and my buccaneer there are three light fighters. Heres hoping we get to see a few of the approved classes being played once people get up that high.

 

[Knight Otu]

Dervish of Sairundan, v. 2
Be as the wind, listen to the storm, and care for the whims of your spirits as well as others. This is the the Path of the Dervish.
Sairundan, a land ruled by a loose federation of tribes, was supposedly founded by several djinn, who passed their knowledge and their blood to the mortals under their care. The legends of these times tell that many Sairundani forged alliances with the very winds, granting them great magical powers, tremendous speed, or enormous strength. However, as the era of the djinn ended, many of its secrets faded from the common knowledge of the tribes.
One of the few bits that still remind of that era is the Path of the Dervish. Taking the nomadic nature of their tribes to the extreme, dervishes strive to attain unity with the winds and the storms in the Dance of the Winds. They no longer are considered part of a single tribe, and they travel far and wide to aid all the tribes in need. Many take this a step further and travel all of the world, seeking new steps for their dances in exchange for their aid. The dervishes of Sairundan learn to follow their whims without harming their surroundings, and shape the winds as the winds shape the dervish, expressing their soul in songs. When two dervishes meet, they are as likely to start a training fight/dance as to start singing together to share their stories.
Most tribes send the young people who seem to be promising dervishes to meet several other tribes, but a few actually send them into distant lands, where they are supposed to pick up new knowledge and as a preparation for their new life as a dervish.
Fighters and rangers are the most common classes to live the path of the dervish. A few ex-monks, bards or rogues might also follow this path, but the martial requirements often discourage them. Other classes usually lack either the martial or the artistic aptitude required for the dervishes.
Hit Dice: d8

Requirements
To qualify to become a dervish of Sairundan, a character must fulfill all the following criteria.
Base Attack Bonus: +6.
Skills: Perform (Dance) 3 ranks, Perfom (Sing) 3 ranks, Tumble 3 ranks.
Feats: Dodge, Mobility, Two-Weapon-Fighting, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (scimitar).
Alignment: Neutral good, chaotic good or chaotic neutral.
Special: Must be from Sairundan, or be accepted by a Sairundan tribe as one of their own. Must pass the Test of the Fifteen Winds.
Test of the Fifteen Winds: To be accepted as a dervish, the aspiring character must impress a number of existing dervishes of his talents as a dancer, singer and athlete. Five dervishes gather, and the character must perform seperately his skills Perform (Dance), Perform (Sing) and Tumble. If at least three of the dervishes are impressed, the character can join the ranks of the dervishes, otherwise he must wait a month before he can take the test again. While dervishes normally travel far and wide, the best chance to gather the five dervishes needed for this test is in Sairundan.

Class Skills
The dervish of Sairundan’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Craft (Int), Escape Artist (Dex), Jump (Str), Listen (Wis), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Survival (Wis), Swim (Str), and Tumble (Dex).
Skill Points at each level: 4 + Int modifier.

  Level	Base	Fort Ref	Will	AC Special
 	Attack	Save	Save	Save	Bonus
   	Bonus
  1st	+1	+0 +2	+0	+1    Slashing blades, song of the storms united, songs of the blade
  2nd	+2	+0 +3	+0	+1	Fast movement +5 ft.
  3rd	+3	+1 +3	+1	+1	Spring Attack, dervish dance 1
  4th	+4	+1 +4	+1	+1	Djinni’s grace, movement mastery
  5th	+5	+1 +4	+1	+2	Fast movement +10 ft.
  6th	+6	+2 +5	+2	+2	Wind’s fury, dervish dance 2
  7th	+7	+2 +5	+2	+2	Djinni’s boon
  8th	+8	+2 +6	+2	+2	Fast movement +15 ft.
  9th	+9	+3 +6	+3	+3	Dervish dance 3
  10th	+10	+3 +7	+3	+3	Djinni’s gift, storm’s fury

Class Features
All of the following are class features of the dervish of Sairundan prestige class.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Dervishes of Sairundan gain no proficiency with any weapon or armor.
AC Bonus (Ex): A dervish of Sairundan gains this bonus to Armor Class as long as he is wearing no armor or light armor and not carrying a shield. This bonus to AC applies even against touch attacks or when the dervish is flat-footed. He loses this bonus when he is immobilized or helpless, when he wears any armor heavier than light, when he carries a shield, or when he carries a medium or heavy load.
Song of the Storms United (Su): When a dervish is affected by a bardic music effect or a similar ability, the dervish may attempt a Perform (Sing) check (DC 15 + required ranks in Perform for that ability). If he succeeds, he picks up the song, duplicating its effects, and can affect other allies just like the bard, but using his dervish levels and bard levels for level-based effects. The dervish can only relay a song if he has enough ranks in Perform to use the ability if he were a bard. For example, a 10th level dervish affected by an inspire greatness effect could inspire greatness in one of his allies with asuccessful Perform check (DC 27). If the dervish also has 2 levels of bard, he can inspire greatness in two allies instead.
For bardic music where the bard's Perform check result affects the effectiveness (such as countersong), the Perform check result of the dervish can be no higher than that of the bard.
The following bardic abilities can be used with this ability: Countersong, Inspire Courage, Inspire Competence, Inspire Greatness, Inspire Heroics. Other, similar abilities might be added to that list by the GM.
Slashing Blades: A dervish treats the scimitar as a light weapon (rather than a one-handed weapon) for all purposes, including fighting with two weapons.
Songs of the Blade (Sp): At 1st level, the dervish gains the ability to dance with any slashing melee weapon and listen to its song once per day. From the song of the blade, the dervish can attempt to find out about any special abilities that the weapon possesses, as per the spell identify cast by a caster of the dervish’s class level. To use this ability, the dervish dances for 1 hour with the blade, and then must succeed at a Perform (Dance) check with a DC of 10 + the weapon’s caster level. If he succeeds, he gains insight into all magic properties of the weapon, including how to activate those functions (if appropriate), and how many charges are left (if any). If he fails by 9 or less, he receives no insight. If he fails by 10 or more, he receives false insight.
Just like identify, songs of the blade does not function when used on an artifact. Songs of the Blade is the equivalent of a 1st level spell.
The dervish cannot take 10 on the Perform check for this ability.
Fast Movement (Ex): At 2nd level and higher, a dervish gains an enhancement bonus to his speed. A dervish in any armor heavier than light or carrying a medium or heavy load loses this bonus.
Spring Attack: At 3rd level, a dervish gains the Spring Attack feat, even if he does not meet the prerequisites.
Dervish Dance (Ex): Beginning at third level, the dervish, may attempt to take an additional 5 foot step during a full attack by succeeding at a Perform (dance) check with a DC of 20. The dervish may not take two 5 ft steps in succession – they must be seperated by at least one attack.
Every three levels thereafter, the number of 5 foot steps the dervish can attempt to take increases by one, but the DC to succeed increases by 10. For example, a 6th level dervish could attempt to take two additional 5 foot steps during a full attack, the first requiring a DC 20 Perform check, the second requiring a DC 30 Perform check.
The dervish can not take 10 on the Perform check for this ability.
Djinni’s Grace: At 4th level, the dervish’s bond with the winds strengthens, granting him a +2 enhancement bonus to Dexterity.
Movement Mastery (Ex): Starting at 4th level, the dervish is so certain of his movements that he is unaffected by adverse conditions. When making a Jump, Perform (dance), or Tumble check, he may take 10 even if stress and distraction would normally prevent him from doing so.
Wind’s Fury (Su): At 6th level, the dervish becomes one with the winds that guide his movements. He may add 1/2 his Dexterity bonus, rounded down, to the damage dealt by his melee attacks.
Djinni’s Boon: At 7th level, the dervish’s bond with the winds strengthens, granting him a +2 enhancement bonus to Charisma.
Djinni’s Gift: At 10th level, the dervish’s bond with the winds strengthens, granting him a +2 enhancement bonus to Strength.
Storm’s Fury (Su): At 10th level, the dervish literally becomes the winds that guide his movements. He may add his Dexterity bonus to the damage dealt by his melee attacks. This ability replaces Wind’s Fury.

 

[Knight Otu]

comrade raoul made some interesting comments in the other thread.

I'd say it looks roughly balanced, but the vast majority of the class's power comes from Wind's Fury and Storm's Fury, the latter of which is huge. I worry that most of the class's most interesting and unusual benefits -- the songs, identification, and (nerfed) dervish dance -- won't come into play all that often (nor will the enhancement bonuses, unless magical items are very rare in your game), leaving the class to function like a relatively straightforward melee fighter who does far more damage with his scimitars than anyone has a right to, and can move and avoid blows a bit more effectively than he'd otherwise be able to.

To keep the class interesting, I'd try to find a happy medium between your version of the dervish dance and the very, very powerful version in CW. The CW ability is very nifty (if, arguably, broken) because it lets you more more than five feet at a time and still make a full attack, letting you do two very nifty things: bring more than one weapon to bear against an opponent who was more than five feet away from you when you started your action (which is overcomes one of the major weaknesses of the two-weapon style), and attack an opponent multiple times before moving away from him (which is a huge advantage in any strictly melee exchange). Your version lets you do neither of these things: it's mainly useful for the very specialized purpose of distributing a full attack among a group of enemies who are clumped together but not surrounding you. It's probably going to be fairly unusual to be fighting enemies in that sort of configuration, and I wonder whether the enemies in question often be relatively harmless mooks. (Note that the ability as written seems to allow players to attack the air if they want to take consecutive five-foot steps -- I could, in theory, unleash nearly all of a full attack against some nasty beast with multiple attacks, take my standard five-foot step, use my last, weak attack that would probably miss anyway to attack the air, and then use dervish dance to take another step, preventing that opponent from taking a five-foot step to close for a reciprocal full attack of his own. Is this a loophole you'd want to plug?)

More generally, I think the class is balanced as written, but a bit lopsided (since the "fury" abilities don't come until high levels) and more boring than it needs to be -- mainly because most of it's power comes from storm's fury. I'd strongly consider eliminating storm's fury -- wind's fury is still quite good, and you may want to eliminate that, too, in favor of an arguably weaker but more flavorful ability that let the dervish add (all of) their Charisma bonus, rather than (half of) their Dexterity bonus, to their melee damage. (I'd also consider moving this to some earlier level -- perhaps 4th or so? -- since it seems as though it would be one of the signature abilities of the class.)

To compensate for the elimination of storm's fury, I'd (a) find some way to work in more abilities that boost genuinely mobile two-weapon combat (the most interesting mechanical innovation of the CW version) -- perhaps a (high-level) ability that allowed you to make one attack with each of your weapons during a spring attack -- and (b) would seriously consider adding the CW version's "thousand cuts" ability at 10th level.

Thanks for the input. I hope you don't mind me copying it over to the other thread?

Storm's Fury, the latter of which is huge.

Which is the reason I put it as the tenth level ability. As I said, I am wary about it's power level.

A good analysis of Dervish Dance, though I think it might seea bit more use than that. Personally, I consider the CW version to be broken, so I'd be

Note that the ability as written seems to allow players to attack the air if they want to take consecutive five-foot steps

That's certainly not the intention. But I believe glossary definition of [GLOSSARY]attack[/GLOSSARY] implies that it is directed against an opponent.

I'm not quite sure if using Charisma is more flavorful than Dexterity, but it is certainly not less flavorful.

A good point about doing a bit more for dual-wielding.
A thousand cuts, though, I'm not quite convinced that it fits with this version...

 

[Creamsteak]

Very cool. I'll go in-depth with this when I get a moment.

 

[Creamsteak]

I think, with a couple miniscule tweaks, this will work. First, I think the dance prereq deserves to get bumped up to 5 (along with the singing at least) to represent that it takes more than just a passing skill in dancing to become a dervish. What I mean is, if a 1st level rogue is able to meet that pre-req, it doesn't seem like it means much.

Second, some of the wording, I believe, I caught a couple things that need to be very slightly reworded. I'll make sure though before I make any such claims.

Edit: Actually... I'm thinking that the skill ranks should be 8 for the performs, and 5 for the non-performs. I'd prefer that at least.

 

[Knight Otu]

Second, some of the wording, I believe, I caught a couple things that need to be very slightly reworded. I'll make sure though before I make any such claims.

It's pretty much certain to me that a few things need to be reworded.

Edit: Actually... I'm thinking that the skill ranks should be 8 for the performs, and 5 for the non-performs. I'd prefer that at least.

Err, I'm fine with increasing the rank prerequisites - but 8 ranks? Oy, that almost turns the class from a PrC for fighter types to one for rogue types.

Assuming no multiclassing (which is ok to be forced for some types of PrCs, but not for this one, IMHO), human bards, (ex-)monks and rogues could qualify at level 9 (due to the human bonus feat), non-human rogues at 10th (using the 10th level ability as a bonus feat), non-human bards and monks at 12th, and every one else at 13th.

Sure, a fighter 6/rogue type 1 could qualify by dropping several skill points into those skills (he'd be 7 1/2 ranks short at that time), but as I said, I don't feel "forcing" multiclassing for this class is appropriate.

 

[Creamsteak]

I don't think of pre-requisites in the terms of "how soon can you get to it" in all honestly. I think of them in terms of what makes sense for the class features. To me, this needs to have a strong background in both fighting with blades and with the perform skills involved. To me, it makes a great deal of sense that bard or rogue levels would work into this class strongly.

I really thought the iconic dervish of this desigh was a bard, and not a fighter.

Also, I'm not liking the enhancement bonuses now that I've looked over it enough. I might have my rules wrong, but do those work with the magic items that provide an enhancement bonus? I imagine they don't. That's an odd bonus in and of itself.

 

[Knight Otu]

As I said, I can see increasing the required ranks to 5, which I think would still be strong enough, but 8 ranks seem excessive.

Also, I'm not liking the enhancement bonuses now that I've looked over it enough. I might have my rules wrong, but do those work with the magic items that provide an enhancement bonus? I imagine they don't. That's an odd bonus in and of itself.

No, they don't stack. That was pretty much my point of making them enhancement bonuses. An alternative would be turning them into inherent bonuses (as per the wish spell), which would be rarer.

 

[Creamsteak]

Why abiity score boosts anyway?