Design & Dev: Monsters (DRAGONS!)

[occam]

Even if the game isn't open ended, you still hit this problem eventually. Look at right now. A 3/4 BAB class is at an automatic -5 by 20th level. No one worries about it because the fighter expects a guaranteed hit with his first attack, a reasonably likely hit with his second, etc, and this just means the 3/4 BAB classes are attacking like fighters on their second iterative attack- which is still good. But in the next edition, it looks like having a near guaranteed hit on attack 1 out of your iterative attacks is going away, as there won't be iterative attacks.

If iterative attacks really are going away in favor of level-based damage bonuses, another way to balance less combat-intensive classes is by affecting their damage bonus, instead of or in addition to their attack bonus. You could even consider a system where everyone gets +1 BAB/level, and a good chance to hit, but with different damage potential.

 

[Aegir]

Something to be kept in mind when you read the write-up about the dragon combat: its a rule of thumb even now in 3.x that solo monster encounters never play up to their CR, and from the sound of it they're designing most monsters in 4e to take that into account by making encounters more of a one monster to one PC affairs.

Dragons on the other hand are being designed as solo monsters, but taking the above rule of thumb into account, they need to be able to fight as a collection of monsters, thus the multitude of options it has. I don't really have a problem with this tactic, especially if it allows for a DM to actually have epic encounters with a single iconic monster (Beholder, Dragon, Tarrasque, etc) that ends up being an actual challenge.

 

[RigaMortus2]

Another example of an encounter you might have in 4E:

In 4E you will have a Monk class that is capable of scouting ahead and, when he encounters a group of monsters, can get their attention and run back to the party. As the monsters chase after him, the Monk will be able to Feign Death. When the Monk does this, it will appear to the monsters that he must have had a massive heart attack and died during his escape. One by one, the monsters will wander back by their camp. At this point, once one of the monsters is alone, the party Ranger will hit him with a bow shot and draw his attention to the rest of the party where he will get slaughtered. Since his monster buddies went back to camp, he'll be alone and out numbered.

Also, you won't need to keep track of ammo in 4E. You just purchase your ranged weapon, in the Ranger's case, a bow, and then effectively have "infinite ammo". Saves on the bookkeeping, which is what 4E is all about!

 

[Henry]

...One by one, the monsters will wander back by their camp. At this point, once one of the monsters is alone, the part Ranger will hit him with a bow shot and draw his attention to the rest of the party where he will get slaughtered. Since his monster buddies went back to camp, he'll be alone and out numbered.

TRAAAAIIIIN!

I'll be playing my D&D, whatever version, a little more plausibly, thanks.

 

[A'koss]

Who says demon lords will have CRs (or the equivalent) in the 20s?

We can assume that if the game goes to 30th level, the Demon Lords in the MM will not be much higher than the low to mid 30s themselves (which is what I assume they'll fall in). That should leave a good 6-10+ CR difference between the mightiest dragons and the Fiend Lords which feels about right.

Again, IMO even the weakest Fiend Lord should be able to take down any generic dragon without too much trouble. Only the big names like Tiamat and Bahamut should be able to compete in their league...

 

[pemerton]

I don't think the dragon needs a logical reason to get a free breath weapon shot at half hit points.

You can do breath weapons in a lot of ways. You can do every X rounds. Or you can do "whenever the following conditions are met." This has the disadvantage of being less realistic depending on your conditions, but the advantage of being more cinematic.

Here's how I'd do it if I wanted my dragon to be cinematic- I'd give it one breath weapon per fight, usable whenever it wants (so it can be strategic and aim this one). Then I'd give it a breath weapon at half hit points. Then I'd give it one more when its close to dead.

This has the advantage of looking cooler, and being really easy to run. It works better if the players don't know about it though.

Dave Noonan discussed this in a recent design and development on the WotC website. "Half hit points" is a handy trigger (from the metagame point of view, because the GM is already tracking hit points) for making something happen in the middle of the combat (which is the desired in-game result).

 

[Jhaelen]

Again, IMO even the weakest Fiend Lord should be able to take down any generic dragon without too much trouble.

Well, in my game there are no generic dragons (well except some of the very young). Each of them has a distinct personality, history and goals and considers itself lord over a region. They are definitely in the league of fiend lords.

 

[Sammael]

Well, in my game there are no generic dragons (well except some of the very young). Each of them has a distinct personality, history and goals and considers itself lord over a region. They are definitely in the league of fiend lords.

Ahem... officially speaking, archfiends command entire planes of existence (or layers thereof), along with immeasurable millions of fiends. I daresay they are a bit more important than even the most powerful of dragons.

 

[A'koss]

Ahem... officially speaking, archfiends command entire planes of existence (or layers thereof), along with immeasurable millions of fiends. I daresay they are a bit more important than even the most powerful of dragons.

Which is exactly my point. The only way they can believably hold onto their lofty positions is by being a significant cut above any standard race of monster.

 

[Jhaelen]

Ahem... officially speaking, archfiends command entire planes of existence (or layers thereof), along with immeasurable millions of fiends.

That's why they're hiding on their layers:
If they dared to travel to the material plane they'd get a spanking by the dragons