Designers looking for mechanics feedback on Optimization Board

[Aulirophile]

Seriously. I just wish that running new things by them prior to publishing was a realistic option.

Back when Dragon released articles one by one and then in a compiled issue that was actually the rules, this happened. CharOp always had a thread on each article, and pointed out stuff that needed to be reworded/fixed/etc.

You'll note a decline in the overall quality since they stopped compiling the issues, part of that is doubtless because that feedback is gone. I'm not sure how you could do it for books, but if a way was found it would be epic.

 

[Neverfate]

Back when Dragon released articles one by one and then in a compiled issue that was actually the rules, this happened. CharOp always had a thread on each article, and pointed out stuff that needed to be reworded/fixed/etc.

You'll note a decline in the overall quality since they stopped compiling the issues, part of that is doubtless because that feedback is gone. I'm not sure how you could do it for books, but if a way was found it would be epic.

This actually still occasionally happened over the last few years, even after the slow down. However, the reason I think it really stopped after the slow down is that DDI, being woefully understaffed and/or mismanaged, just didn't have the ability to listen. I like to hope that this will turn the tide (though Heroes of Shadow put a bad taste in my mouth).

 

[wayne62682]

I view this as a good thing, because it's been proven in the past that CharOp knows the rules better than WotC themselves, not to mention that CharOp has a penchant for coming up with the broken combinations so can easily say "Hey, fix Power A in Book C or else Class B can use it with Items E and F to break the game".

 

[Herschel]

Actually, that's not true in the case of designers. The issue becomes time and numbers. While a small design team has to cover all the bases in a limited time frame don't presume the don't know their stuff better than Joe Gamer. That's why they have their jobs. A large group of people focusing individually on corner cases is not knowing the rules better, it's a form of specialization that isn't possible for a designer.

 

[Fifth Element]

A large group of people focusing individually on corner cases is not knowing the rules better, it's a form of specialization that isn't possible for a designer.

Well said.

 

[Aulirophile]

Actually, that's not true in the case of designers. The issue becomes time and numbers. While a small design team has to cover all the bases in a limited time frame don't presume the don't know their stuff better than Joe Gamer. That's why they have their jobs. A large group of people focusing individually on corner cases is not knowing the rules better, it's a form of specialization that isn't possible for a designer.

If CharOp focused on corner cases, you'd be right. They don't, you aren't. As is always the case, the larger community that focuses on a game system knows more about it then the developers, because tens of thousands of people inevitably figure it out better then the less then a thousand that actually made it. Purely a man hours invested game (ignoring, for a moment, that analyzing a game system is often a fundamentally different skill from building one and the latter is unlikely to be a developer of anything to begin with). This is evidenced in every computer game in existence, a quick look at patch notes for many games will prove that. For that matter it is evident from looking at the Errata Docs for 4e.

The logical conclusion of your argument (amount of hours invested) is the opposite of the one you concluded. Yes, "Joe Gamer" will not know the system better then the devs. He spends a few hours a week at most playing D&D. CharOp, as a community, is not "Joe Gamer" and spends thousands of hours a week on the game. Far more then the devs could, even if they wanted to.

Asking the community that has the best understanding of the system anywhere is nothing short of brilliant. Now we just have to see how the execution goes.

 

[Mummolus]

Yeah, the big advantage CharOp has is that it is a community - so while virtually nobody there is overall more knowledgeable than the average Joe Gamer, in any given area someone will be. It allows for a degree of "collective specialization" that the devs with their limited numbers could never achieve, regardless of how hard they try.

 

[wayne62682]

And the CharOp guys focus on just one aspect (mathematical number-crunching and theorycraft) while the developers have to focus on more things; CharOp has a better chance of finding particular loopholes or powerful combos before the developers ever do.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Yes, 1000's of hours in total. That doesn't mean the individuals are more skilled or more knowledgeable individually. In fact I've seen quite a lot of highly questionable things in charop. It is just that you have LOTS of people on the job.

Game design also requires a quite different mentality than the kind of low-level analysis of individual rules elements and combinations which is the forte of charop. It IS a great resource, but you need the 10,000 foot view level of the design group as well. There's also a certain 'unity of vision' that you don't get when you crowdsource.

In any case, they are getting some good feedback. I suspect a lot of it will lead to somewhat different approaches than some of the suggestions they're getting, but that again is why we have a dev group. They look at things through a different lens. If all making a good game required was superior analysis all of the best RPGs would be open projects...

 

[Herschel]

Yep, but the "too many cooks" issue would then come in to play.