Detail Discussion

[Ferrix]

While I appreciate the gold by level guidelines laid out in the DMG and so on, it is sort of trite that we lay down rules that limit how much a character can craft just because it might bring him more gold than a normal character of his level.

The only thing I really believe we should be enforcing is the time it takes to craft rather than having a set amount of ability to craft per level.

 

[Xael]

In LEW, I don't watch these things carefully because I am not a Judge, but I know for a fact that Bront crafted an item for a player and another to vend to NPCs because he was *very* close to the gold he needed to craft something for himself. He consciously chose to sacrifice his craft points to fill out the remaining gold at a fairly poor exchange rate, and this was a fair trade-off. However, if there were no limit on craft points, this same action would be highly cheesy "Whoops, I don't have enough money yet, but now I do". It's not just 250 MW items that it is a problem. Even crafting and selling one throws off the whack of low level play if you can make one whenever you need to do it. Where do you draw the line if not with a set number of craft points?

Where do you draw the line in normal game, if time isn't a problem? Would crafting that one item and selling it to get that little bit of money to craft that slightly more expensive item have been a problem in a normal game? No (IMHO), unless the PC is in (rather uncommon) situation where he actually has little or no time.

I haven't seen the need for craft points in RL games either, as the DM decides if the players' actions make sense. The only difference in LEW is that there are multiple DMs + judges instead of one DM. Crafting during an adventure could use the normal crafting times if I had to decide.

While I appreciate the gold by level guidelines laid out in the DMG and so on, it is sort of trite that we lay down rules that limit how much a character can craft just because it might bring him more gold than a normal character of his level.

The only thing I really believe we should be enforcing is the time it takes to craft rather than having a set amount of ability to craft per level.

I have to agree again, at least partially. I'm still not quite sure if we have to worry about time either, because all problems seem to be caused by crafting insane amounts of stuff and selling them straight away. And as in RL games, this can be restricted by DM/Judges.



I can't craft xx amount of items and sell them in RL games without DM permission either, and I don't really see why this should be any different in LEW games. A single "All items made for the sake of selling them and getting more money need to be approved by the judge(s) in whereever." text should solve a lot of problems, and if somebody wants to craft those 250 Mw weapons just to be sold, I really can't see somebody saying that it's ok.

I mean, I track every goddamn copper piece spend in anything with my LEW characters (I'm supposed to, at least), including crafted items. The only items that I have actually crafted (and probably will) without notifying judges are a bunch of 1st level spell scrolls. If I craft something even a bit expensive, I would and will either inform about in in the general discussion thread and/or mark it in my "stuff crafted" -attachment.

But then again, maybe I'm just trusting too much on people actually using common sense.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Obviously, if there is time in the adventure, a player can craft whatever they want, even masses of swords, one after the other. This is part of the craft system, and I'm one of the ones who pushed strongest to get LEW to specifically assert this, since they had erroneously not adopted it yet.

Where do you draw the line in normal game, if time isn't a problem? Would crafting that one item and selling it to get that little bit of money to craft that slightly more expensive item have been a problem in a normal game? No (IMHO), unless the PC is in (rather uncommon) situation where he actually has little or no time.

I haven't seen the need for craft points in RL games either, as the DM decides if the players' actions make sense.

In a normal game, the GM lets the player start crafting and then maybe throws an event in if it is a long crafting, but it takes game time. The process is constrained by the game time it takes to do this. The opportunity cost is that the player is not doing something else during that time. It isn't a judgment call of "is he exploiting"--it is a simple matter of keeping track of time.

In a shared world living setting while out of an adventure, there is no such opportunity cost. If you don't implement a specific system on how much is reasonable to craft in a certain amount of time (a la the time system with one craft day per RL day), then you have to make random judgment calls out of thin air.

it is sort of trite that we lay down rules that limit how much a character can craft just because it might bring him more gold than a normal character of his level.

Of course the character will have more gold from crafting. The problem is when there are no rules or limiting factors whatsoever, the character may have far too much more gold, enough more gold to make adventuring for treasure pointless because they can make more money by crafting, raking in hundreds of thousands of gold.

This isn't what Xael proposes though--he wants a subjective judgment call instead of a hard limit pre-agreed upon. This is not an acceptable choice for a living setting because it will either be inconsistent and unfair, or else if it actually is consistent, it will actually be a hard limit that we just don't tell you. This is why I'm having a hard time understanding why anyone would propose what he is proposing. I can see a "hands-off" approach, although I think it would implode immediately, but I really can. But he wants a "hand-on" approach with a judgment call. Help me out here: Xael, would you prefer we had a craft point limit by day/level and we just didn't tell you, so it seemed like we were making a judgment call when we were actually tallying up the points you spent?

 

[Velmont]

The only thing I really believe we should be enforcing is the time it takes to craft rather than having a set amount of ability to craft per level.

But the problem in a living world, it is time is somethng very relative. And it isn't not only a question of having the money fit what is in the DMG. In LEW, I have seen a 3rd level character who can't even buy a masterwork weapon. I also see a Prestige Class: the Trader, whose goal is exactly that: be rich! to a point that by level 9, a character can sell and buy at the same price (at 90% of the market price). He cannot create wealth, but he won't lose 50% of the value of an item when he sell it.

 

[Ferrix]

Well, here's another option. We create two places that are threads. The Market & The Workshop. Anyone who wants to craft something in downtime goes to The Workshop where a DM/judge presides over the time spent, etc. If they want to sell their items they then go to The Market where another judge/DM presides with a variety of NPC's willing to haggle, buy, sell, etc.

You could then also force characters who go to The Workshop who require raw material to go to The Market to acquire them unless they acquired them in an adventure. Thus you could end up with a more dynamic market system dictated by what is going on in the world ruled over by a judge/DM. Expensive or rare components such as adamantine, etc. could be hard to acquire in the market while easier to acquire while adventuring.

Players could then play a game where their adventurers aren't necessarily out to battle evil or whatever, but out to make a business. Giving it a slight social/business slant and letting non-combat focused characters shine as well.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Well, here's another option. We create two places that are threads. The Market & The Workshop. Anyone who wants to craft something in downtime goes to The Workshop where a DM/judge presides over the time spent, etc. If they want to sell their items they then go to The Market where another judge/DM presides with a variety of NPC's willing to haggle, buy, sell, etc.

You could then also force characters who go to The Workshop who require raw material to go to The Market to acquire them unless they acquired them in an adventure. Thus you could end up with a more dynamic market system dictated by what is going on in the world ruled over by a judge/DM. Expensive or rare components such as adamantine, etc. could be hard to acquire in the market while easier to acquire while adventuring.

Players could then play a game where their adventurers aren't necessarily out to battle evil or whatever, but out to make a business. Giving it a slight social/business slant and letting non-combat focused characters shine as well.

This is certainly fair. I would expect the Judge of The Workshop to give something like 1 day of progress per RL day. However, this is effectively equivalent to using time units except it requires more effort on the part of the Judge.

 

[Ferrix]

But the problem in a living world, it is time is somethng very relative. And it isn't not only a question of having the money fit what is in the DMG. In LEW, I have seen a 3rd level character who can't even buy a masterwork weapon. I also see a Prestige Class: the Trader, whose goal is exactly that: be rich! to a point that by level 9, a character can sell and buy at the same price (at 90% of the market price). He cannot create wealth, but he won't lose 50% of the value of an item when he sell it.

*shrugs* I don't mind characters having a plethora of money, however they have to realize that they live in a dangerous world where people are willing to take it from them. I always thought it was silly that a character was forced to sell at half-price to NPC's just so money-making wasn't part of the game except by usually taking it from dead foes or ancient vaults.

Particularly in the Cosmopolitan and industrial style setting of Eberron, it would make more sense to leave this option open for players.

 

[Ferrix]

This is certainly fair. I would expect the Judge of The Workshop to give something like 1 day of progress per RL day. However, this is effectively equivalent to using time units except it requires more effort on the part of the Judge.

I'd prefer this over an abstract time unit system, what were we considering for a calendar system anyways? 1 RL day = 1 in game day for those on downtime? Or something slightly more accelerated?

 

[Rystil Arden]

*shrugs* I don't mind characters having a plethora of money, however they have to realize that they live in a dangerous world where people are willing to take it from them. I always thought it was silly that a character was forced to sell at half-price to NPC's just so money-making wasn't part of the game except by usually taking it from dead foes or ancient vaults.

Particularly in the Cosmopolitan and industrial style setting of Eberron, it would make more sense to leave this option open for players.

Money-making should certainly be part of the game for those who choose it, but most importantly, it needs to be done in a fair and evenhanded manner--equality of opportunity if not equality of result. If we have an extremely unrestrictive system for crafting such that crafting generates massive amounts of GP compared to adventuring, then why would anyone go on any adventure except for ones motivated by altruism? I can list off a bunch of LEW adventures that probably wouldn't have occurred in this case, including Festival of Halina, which was a lot of fun.

Those who craft should be getting more money. But not enough to make everyone else's earnings seem worthless. Moreover, those who don't craft should be able to see how we are limiting this so they don't have to feel they are being swindled.

 

[Rystil Arden]

I'd prefer this over an abstract time unit system, what were we considering for a calendar system anyways? 1 RL day = 1 in game day for those on downtime? Or something slightly more accelerated?

I'm thinking 1 for 1 should be more than fair. In the scheme of PbP, 1 day is not very much at all. I would prefer to give the players bundles of points to be spent that replenish over time at a punctuated rate that averages to 1 per day though, so that someone who hasn't been spending can save up and make something quickly if needed.