Detail Discussion

[Xael]

You know Rystil, while I might see myself as being too optimistic about this, I'm thinking that you're being too negative. I'll try to explain myself again, hopefully better (and shorten my posts a bit):

What I'm basically thinking, is that the craft point and/or time systems are trying to overfix the problem.

Is the problem in crafting items or making money by crafting items?

If it's only the latter, then there's absolutely no reason to restrict the former, which craft point and/or time systems do also.

When does the actual time taken to craft items really matter outside of adventures and crafting for other reason than making money?

 

[stonegod]

Just to interject---let us not forget, for crafting purposes, a PC is going to have a hard time competing with the economy that is already in place in Eberron. Cannith's army of artificers and magewrights, many of them with Dragonmarks, will generaly either outproduce or manipulate the market. Or, at least, I believe that is the intent of that economy (remember, House Jarasco put clerics out of business for potion-making, healing, etc.)

Of course, that is on a subjective large scale, not individual craft small things scale.

 

[Ferrix]

Money-making should certainly be part of the game for those who choose it, but most importantly, it needs to be done in a fair and evenhanded manner--equality of opportunity if not equality of result. If we have an extremely unrestrictive system for crafting such that crafting generates massive amounts of GP compared to adventuring, then why would anyone go on any adventure except for ones motivated by altruism? I can list off a bunch of LEW adventures that probably wouldn't have occurred in this case, including Festival of Halina, which was a lot of fun.

Those who craft should be getting more money. But not enough to make everyone else's earnings seem worthless. Moreover, those who don't craft should be able to see how we are limiting this so they don't have to feel they are being swindled.

It should be equal opportunity, not equality of result. Most adventures don't even go so far as the second one, especially with players who miss things or don't search.

Also, I doubt the majority of players will find an "economic adventure" to be as thrilling as one where you are battling across a moving lightning rail to save your homeland from the evils of the Blood of Vol.

Also, crafting while generating GP doesn't generate the equality of result of XP that adventuring does, and crafting magic items actually costs XP. So, we could really figure that those who go adventuring do so equally for XP and for GP, while those who craft are more in it for the GP.

 

[Ferrix]

Just to interject---let us not forget, for crafting purposes, a PC is going to have a hard time competing with the economy that is already in place in Eberron. Cannith's army of artificers and magewrights, many of them with Dragonmarks, will generaly either outproduce or manipulate the market. Or, at least, I believe that is the intent of that economy (remember, House Jarasco put clerics out of business for potion-making, healing, etc.)

Of course, that is on a subjective large scale, not individual craft small things scale.

This is also an important thought, although some characters may be members of House Cannith or House Jarasco

 

[Rystil Arden]

You know Rystil, while I might see myself as being too optimistic about this, I'm thinking that you're being too negative. I'll try to explain myself again, hopefully better (and shorten my posts a bit):

What I'm basically thinking, is that the craft point and/or time systems are trying to overfix the problem.

Is the problem in crafting items or making money by crafting items?

If it's only the latter, then there's absolutely no reason to restrict the former, which craft point and/or time systems do also.

When does the actual time taken to craft items really matter outside of adventures and crafting for other reason than making money?

In a Living Setting, you need to think pessimistically so you don't have to 'patch' something after damage has been done.

Anyways, the problem is unlimited crafting. Selling the results of this for money is one possible side effect. There are others, though, of course, depending on the craft. Even without selling things, it is easy to do things that are pretty sketchy with unlimited time to craft. That's why there's a powerful Legendary spell somewhere that lets you craft things for an unlimited amount of time in a single night, and it costs XP. One example is building a huge mansion.

When does the actual time taken to craft items really matter outside of adventures?

My answer is always. The game's rules for crafting were created considering the fact that time would be tracked. And why only loves for Crafters--what about the fellow with Profession, another skill that grants material results? Would you allow him to ask for spontaneous money (as per the Profession skill) just using a judgment call without setting a hard limit?

 

[Rystil Arden]

Just to interject---let us not forget, for crafting purposes, a PC is going to have a hard time competing with the economy that is already in place in Eberron. Cannith's army of artificers and magewrights, many of them with Dragonmarks, will generaly either outproduce or manipulate the market. Or, at least, I believe that is the intent of that economy (remember, House Jarasco put clerics out of business for potion-making, healing, etc.)

Of course, that is on a subjective large scale, not individual craft small things scale.

This is another good explanation for craft points--this could partially represent how much the PC can move on the market without stepping on the House's toes.

 

[frostrune]

This may seem like a childish observation as I have never participated in a 'Living' game world before, but isn't the point of this glorious game to role-play heroes and slay monsters? Are there actually characters/people that would prefer to sit around and craft stuff vs join adventures and kick monster booty?

As in every game, PCs may want to craft some useful stuff in their downtime, but I cannot fathom a character that simply wants to make money. Sure I can envisions characters motivated by greed but the actual player still lives for those magic words 'roll initiative',,, right?

I apologize for the lack of constructive criticism in this post and my perhaps judgemental tone, but as a potential new player following this thread this discussion is mind boggling.

Sorry for the rant.

Frostrune

 

[Rystil Arden]

It should be equal opportunity, not equality of result.

Yup, as I said too But if we give incommensurately high rewards to crafters, it isn't equality of opportunity.

Most adventures don't even go so far as the second one, especially with players who miss things or don't search.

Also, I doubt the majority of players will find an "economic adventure" to be as thrilling as one where you are battling across a moving lightning rail to save your homeland from the evils of the Blood of Vol.

Also, crafting while generating GP doesn't generate the equality of result of XP that adventuring does, and crafting magic items actually costs XP. So, we could really figure that those who go adventuring do so equally for XP and for GP, while those who craft are more in it for the GP.

You don't pay XP to craft MW Full Plate though. Or Mithral Full Plate. And these are extraordinarily high profit items if you sell them to PCs, even compared to magic items. Let me give you an example:

He's first level. He uses his starting gold to craft a MW sword, and then he sells it to a PC, using the result to craft Full Plate, and then sells that to a PC. He uses the result to craft Three Full Plates and sells two to PCs and keeps the last one. With about 2000 Gold now, he crafts four more MW weapons for four more characters, building enough gold to craft Mithral or Adamantine Full Plate. He crafts that and either keeps it or sells it for profit. He does all this in about 5 minutes of real time, as long as it takes to type this.

 

[Ferrix]

This may seem like a childish observation as I have never participated in a 'Living' game world before, but isn't the point of this glorious game to role-play heroes and slay monsters? Are there actually characters/people that would prefer to sit around and craft stuff vs join adventures and kick monster booty?

As in every game, PCs may want to craft some useful stuff in their downtime, but I cannot fathom a character that simply wants to make money. Sure I can envisions characters motivated by greed but the actual player still lives for those magic words 'roll initiative',,, right?

I apologize for the lack of constructive criticism in this post and my perhaps judgemental tone, but as a potential new player following this thread this discussion is mind boggling.

Sorry for the rant.

Frostrune

While I agree with some of what you are saying, I believe that it is quite fun in its own right to play the cosmpolitan businessman, especially in the complex intrigue-ridden environment of Eberron.

Eberron provides unique opportunity in that heroes are not always good, nor are the good always heroes. Also, the weavings of the Dragonmark houses and the largely politically motivated environment allows for characters who don't want to get out into the rough-and-tumble wilds but prefer the "tamer" urban streets. A character whose focus is on building himself a business in Sharn is an adventure in its own right what with the various power groups, gangs, etc. that exist, just a type of adventure that is slightly out of the ordinary in your normal game.

 

[Ferrix]

Yup, as I said too But if we give incommensurately high rewards to crafters, it isn't equality of opportunity.



You don't pay XP to craft MW Full Plate though. Or Mithral Full Plate. And these are extraordinarily high profit items if you sell them to PCs, even compared to magic items. Let me give you an example:

He's first level. He uses his starting gold to craft a MW sword, and then he sells it to a PC, using the result to craft Full Plate, and then sells that to a PC. He uses the result to craft Three Full Plates and sells two to PCs and keeps the last one. With about 2000 Gold now, he crafts four more MW weapons for four more characters, building enough gold to craft Mithral or Adamantine Full Plate. He crafts that and either keeps it or sells it for profit. He does all this in about 5 minutes of real time, as long as it takes to type this.

While that's sort of true that it coudl take 5 minutes to type it all out, the resolution should take longer in game. Thus my thought of creating a workplace and a market, which puts that character into an ingame environment with NPC's, etc. to craft it which is ruled over by a judge. In game the above should take quite a long time for a first level character to do, although it shouldn't be out of the realm of the abilities of a first level to do.